Translating Plato's Timaeus

apocatastasis

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Hi everyone.  I am currently involved in a discussion concerning Plato's use of aionios in Timaeus.  It is my impression that Plato uses this word of the realm of unchanging Being in contrast to the realm of time and becoming, as this seems to be the scholarly consensus.  My specific question involves Timaeus 29a:

apêrgazeto, poteron pros to kata tauta kai hôsautôs echon ê pros to gegonos. ei men dê kalos estin hode ho kosmos ho te dêmiourgos agathos, dêlon hôs pros to aidion eblepen: ei de ho mêd' eipein tini themis, pros gegonos. panti dê saphes hoti pros to aidion: ho men gar kallistos tôn gegonotôn, ho d' aristos tôn aitiôn. houtô dê gegenêmenos pros to logôi kai phronêsei perilêpton kai kata tauta echon dedêmiourgêtai:
 
Perseus translates this as such:
Quote
Was it after that which is self-identical and uniform, or after that which has come into existence; Now if so be that this Cosmos is beautiful and its Constructor good, it is plain that he fixed his gaze on the Eternal; but if otherwise, his gaze was on that which has come into existence. But it is clear to everyone that his gaze was on the Eternal; for the Cosmos is the fairest of all that has come into existence, and He the best of all the Causes. So having in this wise come into existence, it has been constructed after the pattern of that which is apprehensible by reason and thought and is self-identical. So having in this wise come into existence, it has been constructed after the pattern of that which is apprehensible by reason and thought and is self-identical.



The person with whom I am discussing this passage has called into question whether or not this passage is saying that the creation is modeled after the realm of Being.  That being said, I was hoping to get some opinions as to what the text is saying and if it indeed is saying that the creation is made in the likeness of the realm of changelessness.

Thanks.
« Last Edit: 18 Oct, 2006, 02:50:03 by apocatastasis »


KaterinaD

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Hallo,

not having read the whole of Timaeus, and not being sure how the word aionios is used in the dialogue, I have to say that my first impression is that you are right: the Creator creates the world we are living in in the likeness of the changeless eternal world of the agathon. That would fit perfectly well, I think, with the platonic theory of forms. I am not quite sure I understand what the scholarly consensus is and what the counter-argument to such an interpretation might be. Would you mind explaining?



apocatastasis

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Hi Kat.  Are you up to task in translating that passage?  That is my main concern.  To answer your question, the scholarly consensus, as evidenced by every translation of Timaeus that I've encountered, is that Plato indeed wrote in Timaeus that the physical world is made in the likeness of the world of Being.  There truly is no controversy over this, as far as I have gathered, save for this chap I'm debating. 
« Last Edit: 18 Oct, 2006, 02:56:24 by apocatastasis »


KaterinaD

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Ok. I was beginning to wonder, you see, whether there was something about the text that I couldn't understand, some funny implication or cross-reference, for example. So is this chap a scholar himself, a student?
So, you need a translation of the passage, the one given by Perseus not being clear enough? Or just to further support your argument?



apocatastasis

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Kat, this chap thinks quite highly of himself, to be sure.  To answer your question, I am trying to come to terms with what the text actually says.  Alas, I don't know much of anything about Greek, which is why I have come to folks such as yourself.  Could you offer a translation of this passage and walk me through it?  Is it indeed speaking of the world of becoming as an image of Being?
« Last Edit: 18 Oct, 2006, 00:50:19 by apocatastasis »


apocatastasis

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Sorry, Katerina.  I just realized that I never answered your question regarding this feller's alternative view.  He hasn't explained his view of 29a yet, but he says that aionios, in 37d, means "pertaining to the eons":  He is arguing that the word refers to a  period of time.  You might wonder how this could possibly make sense as a translation in light of the context of the passage.  If you're up for trying your patience, pushing your imaginative limits or just having a good larf, give the discussion a looksies:  http://aarm.mywowbb.com/forum11/6347.html


banned8

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Three endless pages, trying to convince one person that scholars have not been wrong in their interpretation of 'aeonios' all these years, indeed all these 'aeons' (in the modern Greek sense, i.e. centuries)!

'Aeonios' means 'pertaining to the aeon' (not 'the aeons'), i.e. to 'An age of the universe, an immeasurable period of time; the whole duration of the world, or of the universe; eternity' (Oxford English Dictionary). You will read the same definition in Greek dictionaries.

Let me give you another meaning of 'aeon' from the OED:
2. The personification of an age. In Platonic Philos., A power existing from eternity; an emanation, generation, or phase of the supreme deity, taking part in the creation and government of the universe.
   1647 H. More Song of Soul Notes 138/1 But Intellect or Æon hath in himself proper Intellectuall life.  1678 Cudworth Intell. Syst. 212 The next considerable appearance of a multitude of self-existent deities seems to be in the Valentinian Thirty Gods and Æons.  1865 Lecky Rationalism I. iii. 228 More commonly she was deemed a personification of a Divine attribute, an individual Æon.


Use this stuff if you like, apocatastasis, but please do not refer any of the people at your forum to this forum here. After all, what Plato meant in Timaeus or what Matthew meant by 'aeonios' (eternal life, eternal punishment) in 25:46 has no effect on our daily lives. Eventually, we each choose our own interpretation of God and of whether there is eternal life or not.


apocatastasis

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Thanks for the info, Nickel. I'm not sure why you are against the idea of having this guy come over here, not that he even would.  Are you fluent in Classical Greek?  If so, I would greatly appreciate it if you walked me through this passage (29a).  If not, do you know of anyone that might be interested in helping me out with this?  Thanks.


billberg23

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I'll begin by citing what I think is a much better translation, the traditional but by no means flawless one by Jowett:
And there is still a question to be asked about him: Which of the patterns had the artificer in view when he made the world — the pattern of the unchangeable, or of that which is created? If the world be indeed fair and the artificer good, it is manifest that he must have looked to that which is eternal; but if what cannot be said without blasphemy is true, then to the created pattern. Every one will see that he must have looked to the eternal; for the world is the fairest of creations and he is the best of causes. And having been created in this way, the world has been framed in the likeness of that which is apprehended by reason and mind and is unchangeable, and must therefore of necessity, if this is admitted, be a copy of something.
Please rely on the above translation when interpreting the passage.  As for "walking you through" the Greek, it would be rather an exhausting imposition (besides being against forum rules for translating more than 12 words:  see RULES above).  However, using your own transliterated text, I've highlighted a few key passages with fairly literal translations, as follows.  Hope it helps!

apêrgazeto, poteron [pros to kata tauta kai hôsautôs echon = toward the unchangeable] ê [pros to gegonos = toward the created]. ei men dê kalos estin hode ho kosmos ho te dêmiourgos agathos, dêlon hôs [pros to aidion eblepen = toward the eternal he was looking]: ei de ho mêd' eipein tini themis, pros gegonos. [panti dê saphes hoti pros to aidion = to everyone clear that (he was looking) toward the eternal]: ho men gar kallistos tôn gegonotôn, ho d' aristos tôn aitiôn. houtô dê gegenêmenos [pros to logôi kai phronêsei perilêpton = toward (that which is) grasped by reason and mind] kai [kata tauta echon = unchangeable] dedêmiourgêtai.


Tony

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Hi Bill. "Apergazeto, poteron" not the Greek text you have in brackets, do not equal to "toward the unchangeable."

Here is my take on it:

apêrgazeto (To finish what I'm saying), poteron (about the two), pros to kata (toward the basis) tauta (these) kai (and) hôsautôs(in like manner) echon (having)

So it is: "To finish what I'm saying about the two, that these are also in like manner having."

ê (of) pros (from) to (the) gegonos (come into existence).

from whence they came into existence.



banned8

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Bill has not explained any of the words in black, just those in blue (Greek plus translation). Tony, I'm afraid you are not a classicist, and you cannot attempt an explanation of the entire sentence when you have a problem understanding single words. I suggest you learn from what Bill has written.


banned8

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http://aarm.mywowbb.com/forum11/6347.html

Incidentally, in the past 24 hours your forum seems to have restricted access to members, or, to be exact, to current members, as they won't be accepting new ones (for the time being, I hope). A rather exclusive club, it is.

People with lots of curiosity and time on their hands may consult cached pages here and here.
« Last Edit: 18 Oct, 2006, 22:24:40 by nickel »


Tony

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Kata tauta echon does not equal unchangeable.

"kata (according) tauta (these) exon (having) . . . ."



banned8

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In all sincerity, Tony, do tell me, what are you people trying to prove in those threads at the other forum? Is that a purely academic, linguistic discussion? Does it have some particular relevance to your lives? I don't understand why you are trying to take Plato to pieces when you hardly have the Greek for that.


Tony

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Nevermind my personal life, Nickel.  Let's talk Greek.  Have you a response to my last post?


 

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