Translatum Greek Translation Forum

[Leon]

Καλησπέρα. Τι κάνετε;

This query has popped into my head many a time, so I'd be extremely grateful to someone that could answer this: how do you say 'once removed' (as in the relative 'first cousin once/twice/thrice etc. removed'? How would I say "John is my second cousin once removed"?

Also, I know 'great-grandfather' is 'πρόπαππος', so what is 'great-great grandfather', and 'great-great-great grandfather' etc.?

Σας ευχαριστώ πάρα πολύ για την βοήθειά σας.

Leon.

[banned1]

first cousin once/twice/thrice removed: πρώτος / δεύτερος / τρίτος ξάδερφος, or πρωτοξάδερφος / δευτεροξάδερφος / τριτοξάδερφος (or -λφ- instaed of -ρφ-).

For great-great-etc, we just repeat the pro's in front: προ-προ-προπάππους.

[Leon]

Thanks.

My first instinction would be to repeat the 'προ' but somehow I thought it to be wrong.

So in Greek there is no difference between a second cousin and first cousin twice removed (they are both 'δεύτερος ξάδερφος')? That's strange.

Thanks again.

Leon.

[banned1]

Sorry, Leon, I was totally wrong about "removed". Let's recap:

πρώτος / δεύτερος / τρίτος ξάδελφος: first / second / third cousin

Now, when "removed" comes into this, according to a good friend who has read this, and this site for example (http://www.genealogy.com/16_cousn.html), things get complicated because we have a generation shift.

I don't think we have something similar in Greek (πρώτου βαθμού etc are somewhat different), but as soon as I have grasped the whole concept, I will return.

[Leon]

It's really quite simple: if you share the same grandparents, you are first cousins; if you share the same great-grandparents, you are second cousins; if you share the same great-great grandparents, you are third cousins, and so on. Now, if David's great-grandparents were Lucy's great-great-great grandparents then they are second cousins twice removed. They way to work this out is quite straightforward, I have my own simple method: see which has the least 'greats' (in this case, it is David, who has just one great). Now if you share the same great-grandparents you are second cousins, and then there are two more 'greats' (to make Lucy's great-great-great grnadparents), which shows two generations difference. Actually, it is quite hard looking at it, but I worked it out using that method and it's really simple. You just have to look for the nearest common ancestor that you both share. Let's do the same with your father's first cousin, for example. First, the nearest common ancestor would be your father's first cousin's grandparents, who are your great-great-grandparents. Remember what I said, look for the least 'greats', which would be your father's first cousin, as there aren't any greats. Thus, firstly, you share the same grandparents, making you first cousins, then the two 'greats' making twice removed. You and your father's first cousin are first cousins twice removed. I'll do one more. If Karl's great-great-grandparents are Julie's great-great-great-great-great-grandparents then what are they? Well, firstly, look at the least 'greats' (it's Karl, of course). This means you share great-great-grandparents (making you third cousins), and then thrice removed to make up the rest of the 'greats'. Karl and Julie are third cousins thrice removed.

Does anything I have said make sense to you? Αν όχι, δες αυτό στη Βικιπαίδεια: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cousin_chart.

So, is 'removed' 'βαθμός' in Greek? So is third cousin once removed 'τρίτος/η ξάδερφος/η πρώτου βαθμού'?

Thanks again.

Leon.

[Leon]

Got the hang of it yet?

So was I right in saying 'first cousin once removed' is 'πρώτος ξάδερφος πρώτου βαθμού' etc.?

Ευχαριστώ και πάλι.

Leon.

[banned1]

Sorry, Leon, not to have replied. Not trying to figure it out, really. Trying to finish something else.

No problem understanding the English system. And no, "πρώτου βαθμού" etc. belongs to a different system and I don't think I would try to marry the two.

What I need more time for is (a) to explain the "βαθμού" system, (b) to find a way to transport the "removed" system to Greek.

[Leon]

OK. If you don't have the time or can't answer it any time soon it's no problem for me to ask esewhere so as to not push you too much.

Leon.

[Leon]

Hi. Somebody has searched in a dictionary for me and said that 'first cousin once removed' is listed as 'δεύτερος ξάδερφος', but in the Greek-English section, only 'second cousin' is under 'δεύτερος ξάδερφος'.

[banned13]

Hi, Leon.

The truth is we don't have any special name for cousins "once, twice, or any other number of times -removed".
Example: My father's first cousin is simply called "Θείος", or "ξάδερφος του πατέρα μου". In English, he would be called "first cousin once removed".
And my grandfather's first cousin would be in Greek "ο ξάδερφος τού παππού μου", while in English he could also be called "first cousin twice removed".

So, I think you must have deduced by now that, no, we don't have any special terminology for this kind of thing in Greek. If we did, don't you suppose that this bunch of "know-it-alls" who frequent this site would surely know it?

Alexandra

P.S. Just joking about the "know-it-alls".

[Leon]

Hi, Alexandra.

I just find it very it strange that theire is no way of understanding the 'removed' system in Greek.

Could you please explain the 'βαθμός' system? Is this anything like the 'removed' system in English?

Leon.

[Leon]

Sorry to drag up yet another dead thread, but something I was reading recently made me think about this topic again.

As it appears, to introduce one's first cousin once removed to somebody, you would say (in Greek) "Αυτός/ή είναι ο/η ξάδερφος/η μου", or replace 'ξάδερφος/η' with 'ξάδερφος/η του/της πατέρα/μητέρας μου", or even "θείος/α". But what if the situation was not informal, but something formal or genealogic? For example, I read that John Kerry (the man who tried to win the presidential election in the United States last year) is the ninth cousin twice removed of George Bush himself. Now this is very specific and genealogic, so how would this be interpreted to give the same specific meaning (without using more 'slack' terms like 'μακρινός ξάδερφος')? There has to be a way to use this. If you were translating a text saying that John Kerry is the ninth cousin twice removed of George Bush, what Greek term would you use?

Leon.

[banned13]

First, I need to say that I'm surprised that John Kerry is "twice removed" cousin of George W. Bush. I mean, he is older than Bush Jr, but not that old... [Twice removed means that there is a two-generation difference.]
Anyway, I would say that John Kerry is Bush's distant relative, or to be more specific, ninth cousin of Bush's grandfather... Or a very distant uncle of Bush Sr...
It does sound funny, though, because Bush Sr is older than Kerry.

[banned1]

John Kerry's maternal grandfather, James Grant Forbes, was born in Shanghai, China, where the Forbes family of China and Boston accumulated a fortune in opium and the China trade. Forbes married Margaret Tyndal Winthrop, who came from the Dudley-Winthrop political family, which had deep roots in New England history. Through her, John Kerry is related to four Presidents, including George W. Bush (ninth cousin, twice removed), and to many of the royal houses of Europe. (Wikipedia και αλλού)

I suppose this means that in George W Bush's family they "propagated" at younger ages?

And I have the same question as Leon. What does that make him? Μακρινό παππού του Μπους;

And all that interbreeding, why doesn't it make them stupider? (I'm referring to Kerry, not to Bush)

And I'm also reminded that I still owe Leon an explanation of βαθμοί...

[Leon]

Hi, Alexandra.

There must be a better way of interpreting this.

nickel, they are just very distant cousins (ninth cousins twice removed to be precise), not distant grandparents/grandsons. This explains the actual relationship, originally dating back to the sixteenth century.

Yes, you owe me an explanation of the Greek 'βαθμός' system, and you also said that you would find a way to transport 'removed' into Greek.

Leon.