Author Topic: ὅτι τίς ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ὃς ἐπελεύσεται ὀπίσω τῆς βουλῆς τὰ ὅσα ἐποίησεν αὐτήν; (Ecclesiastes 2:12, LXX version) -> for who is the man who, after following his own plan, will find wisdom (in) everything he has done? (Read 565 times)

luisffmendes · « **on:** 21 May, 2012, 14:35:19 »

I would like that someone could translate this passage from Septuaginta - as if you did not know the Hebrew text, or any modern translation of it...

The greek is from ΕΚΚΛΗΣΙΑΣΤΗΕΣ 1:12 (Rahlfs-Hanhart edition - Editio altera).

Thank you in advance.

spiros · « **Reply #1 on:** 21 May, 2012, 15:44:36 »

And I turned myself to behold wisdom, and madness, and folly: for what can the man do that cometh after the king? even that which hath been already done.
2:12

Then I turned my thoughts to consider wisdom, and also madness and folly. What more can the king's successor do than what has already been done?
2:12
http://bible.cc/ecclesiastes/2-12.htm

billberg23 · « **Reply #2 on:** 21 May, 2012, 16:18:13 »

Following spiros' above-mentioned link, we find the intriguing remark by Keil & Delitzsche: "(Note: The lxx and Symm. by hammělêk think of melak, counsel, βουλή, instead of melek, king; ...)"
You ask an important and provocative question, since we now know (thanks to the Dead Sea Scrolls) that the Septuagint was a translation from a separate Hebrew tradition, the so-called "Alexandrian" (as opposed to "Masoretic") text.
So give us some time to ponder the significance of the differences in the text you cite!

billberg23 · « **Reply #3 on:** 21 May, 2012, 17:29:02 »

First, to clarify the context, let's cite the entire verse from the Septuagint:
Καὶ ἐπέβλεψα ἐγὼ τοῦ ἰδεῖν σοφίαν
καὶ περιφορὰν καὶ ἀφροσύνην·
ὅτι τίς ὁ ἄνθρωπος, ὃς ἐπελεύσεται ὀπίσω τῆς βουλῆς
τὰ ὅσα ἐποίησεν αὐτήν;
Next, we'll attempt a translation of the entire verse. This translation is only a suggestion, and will I hope be followed by other suggestions.
And I beheld, on the lookout for wisdom, both error and foolishness: for who is the man who, after following his own plan, will find wisdom (in) everything he has done?

luisffmendes · « **Reply #4 on:** 23 May, 2012, 19:54:21 »

Thank you...

Yes, billberg23, my point is that the translations we have at our disposal usually have in mind the Hebrew text. As you noted, βουλή can't be translated for "king" - it is obvious to me.

Do you think βουλή can be "plan"? And "Council", like "council of kings", in which one can be "a member of it"?

I have some problems with this part of your translation: "will find wisdom". I can't see where it is in the greek.

Thank you for your attention.

billberg23 · « **Reply #5 on:** 23 May, 2012, 21:33:50 »

Quote from: luisffmendes on 23 May, 2012, 19:54:21

"will find wisdom". I can't see where it is in the greek.

It's there, but can only be seen in the context of the entire verse. The word αὐτήν (feminine singular accusative) in the last line can only refer, I think, to σοφίαν in the first line of the verse. This is the only way that αὐτήν seems to make sense to me. But of course I'm open to further suggestions.
As for βουλή: again, given the context, it seems to make the best sense when interpreted as "plan," i.e., one's own counsel/decision. It doesn't seem to make much sense when interpreted as "king's (or kings') council." But again, I welcome an argument that will persuade me otherwise! (-:

luisffmendes · « **Reply #6 on:** 23 May, 2012, 22:03:12 »

I have no argument, I am just looking for an accurate translation... I understand your point. Do you agree with the following?

"I turned my self to look out for wisdom, and madness and foolishness: for who is the human who, following his own plan will find the same [i.e. only wisdom, or madness, or foolishness] in everything that he has done?"

billberg23 · « **Reply #7 on:** 23 May, 2012, 22:43:48 »

Quote from: luisffmendes on 23 May, 2012, 22:03:12

"I turned my self to look out for wisdom, and madness and foolishness: for who is the human who, following his own plan will find the same [i.e. only wisdom, or madness, or foolishness] in everything that he has done?"

Here is where I disagree with that translation:
1) It does not take into account the fact that there are two verbs of "seeing" in the first line (one a finite verb, the other an infinitive); each one, I believe, has its own object(s) — the first "sees" both error and foolishness (ἐπέβλεψα ... καὶ περιφορὰν καὶ ἀφροσύνην); the second, in a purpose clause (genitive + infinitive), "sees" wisdom (τοῦ ἰδεῖν σοφίαν). So
2) αὐτήν in the last line, which is singular, can only refer to the one thing that is sought, and finally (not) found: wisdom.

So my translation, with some help from you, would end up looking like this:
"On the lookout for wisdom, I beheld both error and foolishness: for who is the human who, following his own plan, will find wisdom in everything that he has done?"

luisffmendes · « **Reply #8 on:** 24 May, 2012, 00:34:03 »

(I was wonder if περιφορά could be translated for "madness", ...)

But, ok, I think you just make it! I agree with your "sentence". Thank you for your help!

billberg23 · « **Reply #9 on:** 24 May, 2012, 01:35:57 »

Quote from: luisffmendes on 24 May, 2012, 00:34:03

I was wonder if περιφορά could be translated for "madness", ...

Παραφορά ("madness") is a varia lectio for the consensus reading, περιφορά ("error"). Probably "error" is more appropriate to the context, don't you think?

luisffmendes · « **Reply #10 on:** 24 May, 2012, 02:01:48 »

Yes. As I said, I think that your translation is as good as we can figure, and having in account the context I do agree with "error".