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ἐὰν ἐκπέσῃ τὸ σιδήριον καὶ αὐτὸς πρόσωπον ἐτάραξεν καὶ δυνάμεις δυναμώσει καὶ περισσεία τοῦ ἀνδρείου σοφία (Ecclesiastes 10:10, LXX version) -> If the iron axe fails, and the man has furrowed his brow, he will gather his strength, and the redoubling of his manly vigor will be the wise thing.
luisffmendes:
I was reading ἀνδρεῖος in the sense of "nature of man": wisdom is what he has as advantage, given his nature (manliness), so man should be wise and he must "gather his strength"...
Nevermind! Once again, your explanation seems to me perfectly appropriate for the given case.
Thank you very much!
luisffmendes:
Sorry, one question more:
- αὐτὸς πρόσωπον ἐτάραξεν means that:
α - man troubled (ταράσσω) + the face (πρόσωπον) + of man
β - man troubled (ταράσσω) + the face (πρόσωπον) + of axe (cf. "he does not sharpen its edge" from NASB translation of the Hebrew, MT)
γ - axe troubled (ταράσσω) + the face (πρόσωπον) + of axe
Does αὐτός refer to man? And whose is the face?
billberg23:
--- Quote from: luisffmendes on 19 Jun, 2012, 04:43:27 ---Sorry, one question more:
- αὐτὸς πρόσωπον ἐτάραξεν means that:
α - man troubled (ταράσσω) + the face (πρόσωπον) + of man
β - man troubled (ταράσσω) + the face (πρόσωπον) + of axe (cf. "he does not sharpen its edge" from NASB translation of the Hebrew, MT)
γ - axe troubled (ταράσσω) + the face (πρόσωπον) + of axe
Does αὐτός refer to man? And whose is the face?
--- End quote ---
This is a really interesting question. Nowhere do I find that πρόσωπον can refer to the "face," or edge, of a blade. Instead, it invariably refers to a countenance or aspect of a person (primarily) or a thing (occasionally). Nor do I find that ταράσσω ("disturb," "agitate") anywhere means "sharpen" or "whet." So I think the phrase must refer to the disturbance of a man's countenance (on discovering that the axe is blunt). Here is a case where, if we had the Alexandrian Hebrew text, it would probably show a significant difference from the Masoretic Hebrew text. And conceivably make more sense than the Masoretic text?
luisffmendes:
I completely agree.
This verse shows that there must be a different text on the basis of the translation made by the 70. Even if we had not proven that archaeologically, we could see that here.
And I really think that the LXX makes more sense, although I realize the temptation to see here a blunt ax that should be polish. The difference seems to me to focus on the use of the term קלקל (to be slight, trifling or swift; polish) by the Hebrew (MT), because the term פָנִ֣ים ("not like פי, the edge, but the front, face" - Keil & Del.) seems to be adequately conveyed to πρόσωπον.
Thank you for your time and accurate commentaries...
billberg23:
And thank you, Luis, for posting such interesting and revealing texts!
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