Author Topic: Tattoos and Ancient Greek  (Read 733207 times)

nero120

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1965 on: 31 Dec, 2009, 13:14:27 »
Hi guys, just wondering if one of you helpful souls could translate the following quote (attributed to Plato) into Greek (capitals) for me (if you know the ancient great, if not modern is fine):

Music is a moral law. It gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, a charm to sadness, and life to everything.

Also could you provide the translation for "Music gives a soul to the universe..." (in case the former quote is too long).

Thank you and happy new year!


billberg23

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1966 on: 31 Dec, 2009, 20:24:38 »
Music is a moral law. It gives a soul to the universe, wings to the mind, flight to the imagination, a charm to sadness, and life to everything.
This is one of those quotations attributed to “Plato” that have spread through the Internet like airborne viruses.  You’ll notice that, in the thousands of times it appears on the Web, it’s never referred to an actual Platonic dialogue.  There’s no way now to discover who said it first, but we can be sure it wasn’t Plato.  His own view of music was extremely circumscribed and selective:  only certain types of music were suitable for the public — those that trained citizens toward virtue and self-discipline.  For a taste of Plato’s views on the relationship of music to moral education, have a look at Book II of his Laws (Jowett’s English translation is readily available on the ‘Net).

Plato’s Socrates would have given a very uncomfortable afternoon to anyone who declared to him that “Music … gives a soul to the universe … and life to everything.”  (Unless he was able to spin it somehow into an allusion to Timaeus' "harmony of the spheres.")  His highest praise of music actually occurs in Book III of the Republic , para. 401d-402a:
Musical training is a more potent instrument than any other, because rhythm and harmony find their way into the inward places of the soul, on which they mightily fasten, imparting grace, and making the soul of him who is rightly educated graceful, or of him who is ill-educated ungraceful; and also because he who has received this true education of the inner being will most shrewdly perceive omissions or faults in art and nature, and with a true taste, while he praises and rejoices over and receives into his soul the good, and becomes noble and good, he will justly blame and hate the bad, now in the days of his youth, even before he is able to know the reason why; and when reason comes he will recognise and salute the friend with whom his education has made him long familiar.(Jowett's translation)

For what it’s worth to you, here’s the first sentence of the above (down to the semicolon) in the original Greek:
Κυριωτάτη ἐν μουσικῇ τροφή, ὄτι μάλιστα καταδύεται εἰς τὸ ἐντὸς τῆς ψυχῆς ὄ τε ῥυθμὸς καὶ ἁρμονία, καὶ ἐρρωμενέστατα ἅπτεται αὐτῆς φέροντα τὴν εὐσχημοσύνην, καὶ ποιεῖ εὐσχήμονα, ἐάν τις ὀρθῶς τραφῇ, εἰ δὲ μή, τοὐναντίον.

Ιf, in your other readings of the actual works of Plato, you come across something worth having in the original Greek, we’d be more than happy to provide it — just give us chapter and verse!
And happy New Year to you, too!
« Last Edit: 31 Dec, 2009, 22:47:15 by billberg23 »
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

nero120

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1967 on: 01 Jan, 2010, 23:45:35 »
Hmm, guess I hit a sore spot. Thanks for the "help"!


billberg23

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1968 on: 02 Jan, 2010, 02:46:04 »
Hmm, guess I hit a sore spot.
Not at all.  We try to be as helpful as possible to you, while remaining faithful to ancient Hellenic language, literature, and culture, as well as to the standards of the Forum.  We're sorry if you feel the considerable time we took to address your request was wasted.

If you really need to have your statement translated into some sort of Greek, why not just post it in the English->Modern Greek section (without, of course, attributing it to Plato)?
« Last Edit: 02 Jan, 2010, 02:57:15 by billberg23 »

kevindimitri

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1969 on: 07 Jan, 2010, 12:58:28 »
Id like this phrase from Hamlet to be translated if at all possible

This above all, to thine own self be true

Kind Regards
Kevin

billberg23

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1970 on: 07 Jan, 2010, 17:01:34 »
This above all, to thine own self be true
(We'd be grateful, Kevin, if you'd refrain from posting the same request in two places.  See "The Rules," top of page.)
It would seem strange to take the Bard's immortal words and force them pointlessly into a dead language.  Better at least to resort to a good translation in a living language.  Here's one by Demetrios Vikelas, and it's very close to ancient Greek:
Προ πάντων δε, μένε πιστός εσύ στον εαυτόν σου.


kevindimitri

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1971 on: 07 Jan, 2010, 17:44:54 »
I'm am terribly sorry. It did occur to me and yes i had read the rules and if its worth anything i did go back and try to delete my new thread once i found out bout this particular one dedicated to tattoo ideas. What i am confused about is the phrase you've given me, is it more modern yet somewhat ancient greek? I know i am prolly making some Shakespeare fans extremely angry but its perfect to describe what matters most to me :). And why the translation into "Ancient" Greek, i know its barely spoken these days but i am absolutely fascinated by ancient greek mythology and i thought it important to try and encompass that passion of mine into my tattoo. And ty so much again and sorry for any inconvenience.

Regards
Kevin
« Last Edit: 07 Jan, 2010, 17:59:59 by kevindimitri »

billberg23

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1972 on: 07 Jan, 2010, 18:26:29 »
Thanks for your good intentions, Kevin, and welcome to the Forum!
What i am confused about is the phrase you've given me, is it more modern yet somewhat ancient greek?
To be precise, the first five words would have been perfectly understood by ancient Greeks, because the forms and vocabulary are the same used in ancient times.

BTW, we're curious about your "prolly."  Is that from Shakespeare, or does it mean "probably"?
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i know its barely spoken these days
.  Actually ancient Greek hasn't been spoken in the last thousand years or so, but modern Greek is often very close to it, especially at a high literary (and somewhat artificial) level.

kevindimitri

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1973 on: 08 Jan, 2010, 08:20:23 »
Yes prolly is virtual speak for probably :p sry for any confusion and no its not from Shakespeare. It is yet another indication of how language deteriorates as time passes :). Umm i have one more question. Ive been meaning to get the tattoo in Lithos Pro(as spoken in the old days) font. I got the pdf file from this very forum. I was wondering if i were to use that font would it someone change the meaning of what you've given me ?. And sorry for any trouble but what is the literal translation of the phrase you've given me? Thank you so very much once again and for the welcome :)

Regards
Kevin

billberg23

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1974 on: 08 Jan, 2010, 08:37:50 »
I was wondering if i were to use that font would it someone change the meaning of what you've given me ?
Is "someone" virtual speak for "somewhat"?  How does "virtual speak" differ from actual communication?  How is it useful?
No, the font you use couldn't possibly change the meaning.  Lithos is of course not appropriate for modern Greek, but hell, every other restaurant in Athens uses it on its menu, so why not?
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And sorry for any trouble but what is the literal translation of the phrase you've given me?
"Before all things, however, do thou stay true to thine own self."
« Last Edit: 10 Jan, 2010, 09:22:36 by billberg23 »

kevindimitri

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1975 on: 08 Jan, 2010, 10:09:34 »
That's wonderful. Its perfect. Thank you so very much for your help :).
And one last thing. If possible could u post the same phrase in upper case. I have the font pdf, but i know i will mess this up somehow

Regards
Kevin
« Last Edit: 08 Jan, 2010, 11:51:39 by kevindimitri »

billberg23

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Re: Tattoos and Ancient Greek
« Reply #1976 on: 08 Jan, 2010, 16:29:06 »
the same phrase in upper case
ΠΡΟ ΠΑΝΤΩΝ ΔΕ ΜΕΝΕ ΠΙΣΤΟΣ ΕΣΥ ΣΤΟΝ ΕΑΥΤΟΝ ΣΟΥ

sam2326

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the soul that sees beauty may sometimes walk alone
« Reply #1977 on: 10 Jan, 2010, 21:44:15 »
if its possible to get this in lowercase. THank you!

billberg23

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Re: the soul that sees beauty may sometimes walk alone
« Reply #1978 on: 11 Jan, 2010, 06:12:21 »
Ἔσθ' ὅτ' ἐμονώθη ἡ ψυχὴ ἣ τὸ κάλλος ᾔσθηται

sam2326

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Re: the soul that sees beauty may sometimes walk alone
« Reply #1979 on: 11 Jan, 2010, 06:26:32 »
Ἔσθ' ὅτ' ἐμονώθη ἡ ψυχὴ ἣ τὸ κάλλος ᾔσθηται

i really appreciate it! thank you for your help!

could i also see it in uppercase font? sorry for the trouble.
« Last Edit: 11 Jan, 2010, 06:47:22 by sam2326 »