live together, die alone –> ἤτοι συμβιῶναι μετ' ἀλλήλων, ἢ καθ' ἕκαστον ἀποθνῄσκειν

[trakis]

Hi guys,

Thanks for the help on my previous thread.

Can someone please help with the translation into Ancient Greek of the phrase:

" Live together die alone "

thanks in advance

Dim

[billberg23]

We assume this is the title of the "Lost" episode that refers to Jack's statement, "If we can't live together, we're gonna die alone" (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qr1Gjwf_kWg) — in other words, a variant on the old adage "United we stand, divided we fall."  The ancient Greek for that would be ἢ συνερχόμεθα εἰς ἕν, ἢ καθ' ἕκαστον ἀποθνῄσκομεν — literally, "Either we get together united, or we die separately."  If the statement be construed impersonally, as a motto, the verbs become infinitive:  ἢ συνέρχεσθαι εἰς ἕν, ἢ καθ' ἕκαστον ἀποθνῄσκειν. 

[trakis]

Thats fantastic Bill!

Glad you picked up on the Lost reference. I'm a huge fan.

Is it possible to translate more specifically as per the reference with only the words, " Live together, die alone"?

Thanks again

Dim

[billberg23]

Is it possible to translate more specifically as per the reference with only the words, " Live together, die alone"?

Wouldn't make sense in ancient Greek, Dim.  I gave it my best shot.  Maybe someone else has a suggestion.

[trakis]

thanks again Bill

[Glossamachos]

Dear Billberg,

your suggestion "ἢ συνερχόμεθα εἰς ἕν, ἢ καθ' ἕκαστον ἀποθνῄσκομεν" has an amazingly ancient ring. What do you think about making use of κοινῄ - ἰδίᾳ in order to emphasize the juxtaposition of the choice in question? This would result in:

ἢ κοινῄ συνερχόμεθα, ἢ ἕκαστος ἰδίᾳ ἀποθνήσκει.

Good shot?

Γλοσσάμαχος

[billberg23]

Thanks, Glossamachos, for the interesting suggestion, and one that invites a good deal of reflection.  As you've seen, I've taken "alone" to mean "separately" (hence my καθ' ἕκαστον = "one by one"), whereas ἰδίᾳ would have the sense of "privately," "as an individual."  I can't come up with an ancient instance of dying with the adverb ἰδίᾳ, and am not sure it would make sense in Greek (normally ἰδίᾳ is used for some voluntary activity like planning, dining, deciding, sacrificing, etc.).  You may be able to make a better case for κοινῇ, but without ἰδίᾳ you lose the idiomatic contrast you're aiming for.

[Jonathan]

ἤτοι συμβιωτέον ἡμῖν πρὸς ἀλλήλους ἢ ἐρήμοις θνητέον. I used ἤτοι since in Classical Greek it introduces a stark alternative. Μόνοις is possible for ἐρῆμοις but slightly less powerful, because ἐρῆμοις indicates total abandonment. Sophocles uses both together & in prose ἐρῆμοσ is used frequently of poor, friendless persons.

That should be ἐρήμοις!

[billberg23]

Τhanks again, Jonathan, for a stimulating post.  The impersonal construction *θνητέον (or *ἀποθνητέον) is not attested anywhere in Greek, and there's probably a good reason for that: the verbal constructions in -τέον are invariably used with verbs describing activity.  For example, you can say βιωτέον ("[life] must be lived"), but you can't make such an impersonal construction for the intransitive verb ζῶ ("be alive"), which describes a state of being rather than an activity.
Οtherwise, your συμβιωτέον ἡμῖν πρὸς ἀλλήλους, meaning "We have to get along with each other," sounds fine. 

[Jonathan]

How do I reply to billberg23s reply!
Aristotle in his Nicomachean Ethics III, 1, [8] writes:-
[8] Yet there seem to be some acts which a man cannot be compelled to do, and rather than do them he ought to submit to the most terrible death: for instance, we think it ridiculous that Alcmaeon in Euripides' play is compelled by certain threats to murder his mother!
His Greek text is ἀποθνητέον, παθόντα τὰ δεινότατα. He also uses the form ἀποθᾰνετέον, 'one must die' in N. E. 1110a27.
Plato uses ἰτέον [one must come/go] in the Republic & The Laws. I could use this instead of your συνέρχομαι. The distinction between βίος & ζωή is that βίος  is not not animal life (ζωή), but mode of life/way of living. A slave shared ζωή with his master but not βίος. Hence I used
συμβιωτέον.
Thanks as usual for your comments.

[Jonathan]

The quote from N.E. 1100a, 27 is similar but not the same as the one from N.E. III. It is:-
ἔνια δ᾽ ἴσως οὐκ ἔστιν ἀναγκασθῆναι, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον ἀποθανετέον παθόντι τὰ δεινότατα....
Just for completeness' sake.

[billberg23]

The quote from N.E. 1100a, 27 is similar but not the same as the one from N.E. III. It is:-
ἔνια δ᾽ ἴσως οὐκ ἔστιν ἀναγκασθῆναι, ἀλλὰ μᾶλλον ἀποθανετέον παθόντι τὰ δεινότατα....
Just for completeness' sake.

N.E. III, 1, [8] is in fact not just similar, but the same as 1100a, 27:  the chapter is simply numbered differently from the Stephanus page.  And the Oxford text apparatus doesn't mention an ἀποθνητέον as a varia lectio for ἀποθανετέον.  Where is your ἀποθνητέον coming from?
In any case, fair enough — you've managed to locate a couple of instances of the impersonal construction being used intransitively, so I'll have to soften my "invariably" to something like "normally."  Thanks for healing my ignorance there!
As I said, your συμβιωτέον ἡμῖν πρὸς ἀλλήλους sounds fine.  My distinction between βιοῦν and ζῆν was meant only to illuminate the distinction between a transitive and intransitive verb:  you can βιοῦν a βίον, but you can't  ζῆν a ζωήν.
P.S., Jonathan:  You can always correct or add to your post even after it's been posted.  Simply click on the button "Ø MODIFY" and type the appropriate changes.

[Jonathan]

Thanks. billberg23. First, I have two texts of Aristotle, one with ἀποθνητέον & another with ἀποθανσετέον but we must follow the old principle of difficilis lectio potior:- the more difficult reading is preferable. It transpires that the first is a German scholar's correction of the existing text. Therefore my own feeling is that quite clearly it is possible but not what Aristotle wrote.
Second, Aristotle's N.E. is full of impersonal forms with -τέον---a veritable hunting ground for one interested in such forms! I suppose as is the habit of lecture notes, which he gave at the Lyceum, the occurrence of 'one must' is likely to be very common.
I value your comments. In this case, i wanted something brief as befitted the original English.

[Jonathan]

The above version is wrong: I would amend it to ἤτοι [here it is a strong contrast] συμβιῶναι μετ' ἀλλήλων, ἤ.........

[billberg23]

Concedo maiori.  (-: