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Translation Assistance => Other language pairs => Ancient Greek->English translation forum => Topic started by: Euterpe on 11 Aug, 2007, 05:17:20

Title: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: Euterpe on 11 Aug, 2007, 05:17:20
τὸ ἐγδόχιον  τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια

This is from another inscription. As usual I am trying to find out by myself before to ask. Does that mean "this waterpipe and this fountain in the city"?

Thanks!

Euterpe

EDIT: I can't be fountain, it is plural, I just realized... So is it some kind of "water system"?
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδόχιον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια
Post by: billberg23 on 11 Aug, 2007, 05:38:59
This looks like "the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)."

ἐγδόχιον seems a misspelling of ἐκ-(or eγ-)δοχεῖον, "reservoir."

The definite article in Greek lost its demonstrative sense soon after Homer's time.  Just translate it as "the."

ἡ πόλις in inscriptions sometimes means "the acropolis," i.e., the citadel.

Unless it's a state secret, Euterpe, could you satisfy our curiosity about the source of these inscriptions, and the context in which you're studying them?
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: Euterpe on 11 Aug, 2007, 21:09:53
No state secret here. I am translating inscriptions and honorary decrees from Turkey dating between 2nd and 1st century BC. Those are sources that I use to write my Master's thesis. I've done the main work, but I have around 20 inscriptions or decrees left to translate. The problem is that history and art history are my majors, not classics, so I generally get the gist of those inscriptions, but it gets pretty hard when I need to translate word by word.

I am not paid for this work and I won't be graded on it either. It is just for me, to be thorough with my work. I hope this is not a problem.

I've checked the spelling and it is right. I guess they made mistakes to.

Thanks for your help!

Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: billberg23 on 11 Aug, 2007, 22:10:10
I am not paid for this work and I won't be graded on it either. It is just for me, to be thorough with my work. I hope this is not a problem.
Not a problem at all.  You're to be congratulated on your conscientiousness.

Quote
I've checked the spelling and it is right. I guess they made mistakes too.
Yes, it's "their" misspelling, not yours.  It's interesting as evidence of iotacism (tendency to pronounce certain vowels and diphthongs as "ee") in the 2nd-1st century B.C., at least in Anatolia.
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: Euterpe on 11 Aug, 2007, 22:40:31
It's interesting as evidence of iotacism (tendency to pronounce certain vowels and diphthongs as "ee") in the 2nd-1st century B.C., at least in Anatolia.

If I am not mistaken this phenomenon would explain the modern Greek pronunciation too?

Actually I have to admit that I feel bad asking for your help and not being able to help in return. I've looked through the other topics, but I don't  think I could be of any help. My native tongue is French and I also speak English, understand German and Italian, but my Greek is not nearly good enough to offer my help, even in the French topic.
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: billberg23 on 11 Aug, 2007, 22:59:52
If I am not mistaken this phenomenon would explain the modern Greek pronunciation too?
Yes, the "modern" pronunciation was already developing in the 2nd century B.C.

Don't worry about your contributions to the site.  The time will come when we'll need you desperately, and you'll answer the call! (-:   In the meantime, your interesting research has been contribution enough.  What's the title and theme of your thesis?
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: F_idάνι on 11 Aug, 2007, 23:07:03
Actually I have to admit that I feel bad asking for your help and not being able to help in return. I've looked through the other topics, but I don't  think I could be of any help. My native tongue is French and I also speak English, understand German and Italian, but my Greek is not nearly good enough to offer my help, even in the French topic.

Sorry for interrupting, but, I'm Greek, and MY greek is not good nearly good enough to offer any help to you :-)

As Billberg has just said, I just wanted to stress the fact that you don't need to reciprocate.
Every question is food for thought, and, in that sense, you have already helped some of us :-)
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: Euterpe on 11 Aug, 2007, 23:12:57
I am still working on the phrasing in English...  It is about euergetai who built for their city.  We have a great word in French "evergetisme edilitaire", but I have not yet found an English equivalent for the adjective "edilitaire" ...

I'll be happy to answer the call ^^

EDIT: Thanks F_idάνι. Nice Quote ^^
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: banned8 on 11 Aug, 2007, 23:28:00
but I have not yet found an English equivalent for the adjective "edilitaire" ...

Hi. Wouldn't aedilitian (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2006-32%2CGGGL%3Aen&q=aedilitian&btnG=Search) do?
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: billberg23 on 11 Aug, 2007, 23:29:56
Εvergetisme edilitaire is truly wonderful, combining the Greek word for "benefactor" with the reference to the Roman office of aedile.  (In fact, Latin aedilis often translates into Greek as ἀγορανόμος.)
In English, unfortunately, I don't think we can do better than "philanthropy," which isn't very specific.
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: Euterpe on 11 Aug, 2007, 23:32:39
I thought "aedilitian" was only used as a noun in English (Roman magistrate). But if it is also used as an adjective that would be great actually!
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: billberg23 on 11 Aug, 2007, 23:41:02
(Sorry, didn't mean to bump into your post, nickel!)  Yes, just because the adjective "aedilitian" hasn't yet made it into dictionaries on this side of the Atlantic, it doesn't mean that it can't be used in the title of an academic thesis.  Sounds quite elegant, actually!

The noun, Euterpe, for the Roman magistrate in English is "aedile."
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: banned8 on 11 Aug, 2007, 23:43:35
Probably, you would have to choose between "evergetism" and "euergetism" of the aediles. Wikipedia goes for evergetism (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evergetism) but the Britannica and other reliable sources prefer "euergetism (http://www.google.com/search?num=100&hl=en&safe=off&rls=GGGL%2CGGGL%3A2006-32%2CGGGL%3Aen&q=aedilitian&btnG=Search)".

According to the Oxford English Dictionary, "aedilitian = pertaining to an ædile", but the examples on the web are rather few.
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: Euterpe on 11 Aug, 2007, 23:54:02
Thanks Nickel.

Yes, in French I use "evergetisme", but in English I always use "euergetism" (which makes it pretty hard to pronunce for me lol).

So I could go for "aedilitian programs...". I guess that sounds nice. The only problem is that it has a strong "Roman flavor", doesn't it?
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: banned8 on 12 Aug, 2007, 00:41:08
So I could go for "aedilitian programs...". I guess that sounds nice. The only problem is that it has a strong "Roman flavor", doesn't it?

Not only does it have a strong Roman flavour, but it seems it is not used even in books about the Roman world. In this searchable book, 'Bread and Circuses' : Euergetism and Municipal Patronage in Roman Italy (http://www.amazon.ca/gp/product/0415146895/ref=sib_rdr_dp/701-1604289-0177919), you will find aedile(s) used, but not aedilitian. The word "municipal" seems to be used instead.
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: billberg23 on 12 Aug, 2007, 00:49:09
In common parlance, I think "municipal" refers to the affected jurisdiction, while "public works" refers to the programs undertaken within that jurisdiction.  So "public works patronage" or "euergetism in public works" might fit.
Title: Re: τὸ ἐγδοχῖον τοῦ ὕδατος καὶ τὰ ἐν τῆι πόλει ὑδραγώγια -> the water reservoir and the conduits in the city (or on the acropolis)
Post by: Euterpe on 12 Aug, 2007, 01:36:11
I know, it is pretty complicated.
It really is about Greek history not Roman, even if Anatolia became de facto a Roman province after Attalus' will. In French the word "édilitaire" has lost the Roman connotation but not in English I believe. In French it just means "concerning public works".

Nickel, I've read this book and many other books on the same subject and I have never found exactly what I am looking for.

Thank you both for your enlightening comments.