Transliteration and translation of Greek names male and female

[spiros]

Spiros, I've sent you my file via email. Let me know if you don't get it. Thanks.

Angeliki, the chart has been attached to your previous message.

[Leon]

My last name is Λίγγρης and I pronounce it /'lingris/, in the same way that άγγελος is pronounced /'angelos/. I have always spelt it Lingris in English but it appears as Liggris on my passport and as Ligris on my credit cards. I have never complained.

Interesting. I can only agree on your personal spelling ('Lingris').

Also, do you spell 'Νίκος' with a 'k' or a 'c' in Latin letters? Why on earth do people use 'c'? I always use 'k'.

Something's also been bugging me: why is 'δ' transliterated as 'd' and not 'th'?

Leon

[banned8]

In English, I spell my name Nick, but the transliterated name is Nikos, and lots of my English-speaking friends call me Nikos.

'δ' is 'd' and 'θ' is 'th', historically and in age-old practice: Poseidon, Demeter, Athena (or Athene).

The English 'th' may be pronounced 'δ' or 'θ' or 'τ'. And in any way, the old 'transliteration' patterns were decided by the Romans, long before the English language as we know it now.

[Leon]

Ah, I see, so it's basically still in use from all the way back then. I'm guessing the same with the 'c' for kappa, like 'Constantinus' (→ 'Constantine') from 'Κωνσταντίνος' contrast to the more modern 'Konstantinos'. But, hasn't anybody thought of changing it? So many other transliteration methods have changed with other letters (i.e kappa) so why not do the same to delta?

Leon

[banned8]

Since you mentioned it, C is a Latin letter. The Romans just rounded the Greek Γ. So basically changing Greek kappas to Latin C's would be an anomaly.

But Constantinus is a Roman name, a diminutive of Constantius. I'm sure you know the words 'constance', 'constant(ly)'.

We don't want to change 'd' to 'th' for 'δ' because 'd' is 'δ' and it is basically the same sound. On the other hand, as I have explained, 'th' is 'θ' and cannot stand for 'δ', even if 'th' is pronounced like 'δ' in a number of English words. Demis is Demetrius and Themis is Themistocles.

[Leon]

I do see your point, but how is 'd' 'δ' if it's pronounced different?

[banned8]

As a quick answer, here is what the Babiniotis dictionary Spiros has been talking about says about the letter Δ (delta):

Όσο γνωρίζουμε από τη φωνολογία τής αρχαίας Ελληνικής, το γράμμα δ αντιπροσώπευε ένα κλειστό οδοντικό σύμφωνο, το -ντ- (d) και όχι το διαρκές οδοντικό σύμφωνο που προφέρουμε σήμερα. Η λέξη δώρον λ.χ. προφερόταν ως /'dooron/ και όχι ως /'δoron/, όπως συνέβαινε και με την προφορά των β (ως -μπ-) και γ (ως -γκ-). Ωστόσο, ήδη στους χρόνους πριν από τον Χριστό, το δ άρχισε να προφέρεται ως διαρκές σύμφωνο με τη σημερινή προφορά… Μορφικά, το τριγωνικού σχήματος Δ της ελληνικής γραφής, στο λατινικό λεγόμενο αλφάβητο (που είναι, στην πραγματικότητα, το δυτικό ελληνικό αλφάβητο της Χαλκίδας) έλαβε τη μορφή τού D, με κύρτωση των δυο πλευρών του τριγώνου.

Will a kind collegue attempt a translation of this in case Leon gives up?
Or, Leon, give me a couple of days, and I'll get back to this, OK?

[Leon]

I understand it, Nick.

But if so many other letters can change to better transliterations in accordance with the Modern Greek sounds, rather than the Ancient Greek ones, then why can't delta do this?

Leon

[banned8]

Because there's nothing better than D (even in IPA phonetic transcription they use a Greek delta, δ), and because 'th' won't do (and in any case it is used for theta).

Therefore, as far as historical names are concerned, there's no way we can change them, and Θαδδαίος will remain Thaddaeus (can't visualise it as Thaththeus). On the other hand, everybody seems happy with the change of their names' Greek deltas into d's and they won't change them into th or anything else I can think of. Have you any bright ideas? And don't mention th again, IT WON'T DO.

[Angeliki]

Nickel, I like your classification in the translation of names and I'm sure this is more or less what is followed by most translators. To an extent, I dare say that it is also quite convenient as, in many cases, such as novel names, one has the possibility to choose. In any case, good research is a safe and necessary start. I’d really like to know though what the rules are concerning this first category. European Union rules? Greek government rules? Where are they? I’ve been sticking to this chart as a last resort, doubting of its credibility. It might have been a wrong choice after all.

Spiros, thanks for the upload.

Leon, you really need to get over this “th” and “d” thing. Think of it differently: why not choose the safe road? And by "safe road" I mean the one that is historically accepted and does NOT create ambiguities.

Angel  (just decided to cut my name :-)  I'm fed up with the other one)

[banned8]

Angel, gave you something to think about, haven't I? Angeliki or Aggeliki? Well, there's Angela as well.

I've never had to stick to EU rules about transliteration so I'll give Spyros a few more days and see if he comes up with some hard-and-fast rules about prevailing practices. If not, I may decide to do some research of my own. In the meantime, we can use our imagination.

[llorando]

Γειά σας...

συμφωνώ και εγώ με τις κατηγορίες του Νικελ περι ονόματα...

αλλά τα attachments για μετάφραση απο ελληνικά σε αγγλικά με κάνουν να αναρωτιέμαι...

γιατί Acropolis η Ακρόπολη?

[Leon]

Hello everybody, and thanks! You're truly great and have helped me to understand things much better.

I've noticed a lot of Greek names or places ending in 'κη' end up as 'ca' in English, i.e.: 'Αγγελική' → 'Angelica', 'Θεσσαλονίκη' → 'Thessalonica' or 'Salonica' are just a few I can think of at the moment. Also 'Σπάρτη' in English is 'Sparta'.

Llorando, 'c' for 'κ' was used by the Romans because I don't think there was a 'k' back then, and it's stuck ever since. In English we do, sometimes, use 'Akropoli'.

Leon

[Leon]

I heard that in Greek tradition, a child (whether male or female) takes his/her father's first name in it's genetive form as their middle name. Is this right?

Secondly, when girls always have the genetive version of their father's surname, so why do many people that live in England have the male version, i.e. Κατερίνα Αποστολίδου → Catherine Apostolidis?

Lastly, sometimes peoples' names are anglicised if they live in an English-speaking country, but I have a query about this. I know a woman whose name is Ελένη (Έλλη) Καραγιώργη and she uses the name Helen Karageorge -- even on formal documents, but how is this possible if her real name is Ελένη Καραγιώργη? People just can't go writing different names on formal documents, so how does she (and amny other people who anglicise their names) do it?

Leon.

[spiros]

Secondly, when girls always have the genetive version of their father's surname, so why do many people that live in England have the male version, i.e. Κατερίνα Αποστολίδου → Catherine Apostolidis?

Because otherwise foreign people would get confused and think that it is a different surname altogether. Imagine a girl whose father's surname is different than hers - very confusing!