Author Topic: καὶ τἄλλα πάθη καὶ ... (Philo, De Specialibus Legibus 2.157f.)  (Read 3608 times)

athena

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Hello!  I am looking for a word for word translation for this excerpt from Philo (De Specialibus Legibus).

I have the translation, but cannot match exactly what is being said.  For example what is τἄλλα, νοσήματα etc?  I know that  ἄρτος  ἄζυμος  is unleavened bread, but what other words refer to unleavened bread here, as the phrase is used twice?  Any help will be appreciated.


"καὶ τἄλλα πάθη καὶ νοσήματα τῆς ψυχῆς ἐληλακότος. ὁ δ' ἄρτος ἄζυμος, ἤτοι διὰ τὸ τοὺς προγόνους"

I've included only the first part for translation, as I don't want to ask too much.  :)

This is a translation of that expanded section from the internet:

"And the unleavened bread is ordained because their ancestors took unleavened bread with them when they went forth out of Egypt, under the guidance of the Deity; or else, because at that time (I mean at the spring season, during which this festival is celebrated) ..........."

I guess my main question is, the translator writes "the unleavened bread is ordained"  AND "their ancestors took unleavened bread"  .....  is "unleavened bread" indicated twice in this section or how is he deriving that?

I can add more of the greek if this is not sufficient.  THANK YOU!


« Last Edit: 15 Apr, 2008, 03:30:20 by billberg23 »


billberg23

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Re: καὶ τἄλλα πάθη καὶ ....
« Reply #1 on: 19 Nov, 2007, 17:35:43 »
Unfortunately, Athena, the Greek text you give us (except for mention of "unleavened bread" and "ancestors") doesn't agree at all with the translation you provide.  The Greek says, "... (of something) having driven away the other (τὰ ἄλλα) sufferings and sicknesses (νοσήματα) of the soul, but the unleavened bread, whether through the fact that ... their ancestors ..."
So it would save time for us if you check the text again to see if you can find what actually matches the translation.  And do please give a numerical reference to Philo by book, chapter, etc. 
« Last Edit: 19 Nov, 2007, 17:40:04 by billberg23 »
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

athena

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Re: καὶ τἄλλα πάθη καὶ ....
« Reply #2 on: 19 Nov, 2007, 22:26:52 »
billberg,
Thank you for your reply and sorry for the confusion.

The referenced material is Philo, De Specialibus Legibus 2.158

I got the translation from "EarlyJewishWritings.com": http://earlyjewishwritings.com/text/philo/book28.html

 (158) And the unleavened bread is ordained because their ancestors took unleavened bread with them when they went forth out of Egypt, under the guidance of the Deity; or else, because at that time (I mean at the spring season, during hich this festival is celebrated) the crop of wheat is not yet ripe, the plains being still loaded with the corn, and it not being as yet the harvest time, and therefore lawgiver has ordained the use of unleavened food with a view to assimilating it to the state of the crops. For unleavened food is also imperfect or unripe, as a memorial of the good hope which is entertained; since nature is by this time preparing her annual gifts for the race of mankind, with an abundance and plenteous pouring forth of necessaries.


I got the greek from here:  http://khazarzar.skeptik.net/books/philo/specialg.pdf

If you scroll down to page 63, I believe this De Specialibus Legibus 2 and look at 158.

καὶ τἄλλα πάθη καὶ νοσήματα τῆς ψυχῆς ἐληλακότος. ὁ δ' ἄρτος ἄζυμος, ἤτοι διὰ τὸ τοὺς προγόνους .....

Is this not the matching section?  It seems to be.

My main interest is the words Philo uses to speak about bread.  Is the word artos or any other word for bread ever used here without the descriptor ἄζυμος ?   ( I understand that he is speaking about unleavened bread, but does each word for bread here specifically indicate unleavened, or in some case(s) is it assumed?)

Thank you,
Athena


billberg23

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Re: καὶ τἄλλα πάθη καὶ ....
« Reply #3 on: 20 Nov, 2007, 08:48:42 »
Here’s our problem, Athena:

Mr. Yonge, who provided your English translation, had only a fragmentary Greek text of paragraph 157.  The Greek text you are using is more complete, so includes (just before the beginning of 158) a phrase describing a person who takes the festival seriously, λύπην καὶ φόβον καὶ ἐπιθυμίαν καὶ τἄλλα πάθη καὶ νοσήματα τῆς ψυχῆς ἐληλακότος (who has cast aside grief and fear and desire and the other passions and sicknesses of the soul).  Then begins 158:  ὀ δ’ ἄρτος ἄζυμος, etc., which Yonge had and which you have.

Ἄρτος is used only once here, and it is accompanied by ἄζυμος as a predicate adjective.  It isn’t Philo, but Mr. Yonge, who repeats the term “unleavened bread” at the beginning of 158.  A literal translation of that sentence would be And the bread is unleavened  (ἄρτος [sc. ἐστὶν] ἄζυμος) either through the fact that their ancestors, when sent under divine escort into resettlement, provided themselves, under extremely hurried conditions, with unleavened dough  (τὰ φυράματα ἄζυμα) from wheat flour;  or because at that particular time (I’m talking about the season of Spring, in which it is seen fit to hold the festival) the grain crop is unripe, with the fields loaded with grain but not yet ready for harvest-time.

Hope all that helps.
« Last Edit: 22 Nov, 2007, 19:52:14 by billberg23 »
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

athena

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Re: καὶ τἄλλα πάθη καὶ ....
« Reply #4 on: 20 Nov, 2007, 15:29:31 »
Bill,
Thank you so much for taking the time to help, and for your extremely clear explanation which addressed exactly what I was trying to understand. 

Tremendously appreciated.