Author Topic: Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by, that here, obedient to their laws, we lie -> Ὦ ξεῖν’, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι (Simonides of Kea)  (Read 32003 times)

chupasart

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full text is

go tell the spartans, stranger passing by, that here, obedient to their laws, we lie

   thanks
« Last Edit: 06 Sep, 2011, 16:21:38 by billberg23 »


wings

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Ω ξείν', αγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι.

http://gym-platan.chan.sch.gr/pw/persianwars/hotgates/text_doc3.htm

By Simonides (http://plato-dialogues.org/tools/char/simonide.htm)

In Greek Polytonic the phrase appears as:

Ὢ ξείν’, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα τοὶς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.

(in the upper case) Ω ΞΕΙΝ', ΑΓΓΕΛΛΕΙΝ ΛΑΚΕΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΟΙΣ ΟΤΙ ΤΗΔΕ ΚΕΙΜΕΘΑ ΤΟΙΣ ΚΕΙΝΩΝ ΡΗΜΑΣΙ ΠΕΙΘΟΜΕΝΟΙ.

« Last Edit: 05 Aug, 2011, 08:19:03 by billberg23 »

ThePatriot

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Does anyone have a link to the full English text of the document that wings so helpfully posted?  Is the phrase in question part of a larger work of Simonides reproduced on that site, or is the text there merely discussing Simonides piece?  I ask because I've been looking for more of Simonides epigrams from Thermopylae, and haven't found much information.   Thanks so much.


wings

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The epigrams written in the usual dialect of elegy, Ionic with an epic colouring, were intended partly for public and partly for private monuments. There is strength and sublimity in the former, with a simplicity that is almost statuesque, and a complete mastery over the rhythm and forms of elegiac expression. Those on the heroes of Marathon and the Battle of Thermopylae are the most celebrated.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Simonides_of_Ceos


You can read about Simonides in this Wikipedia article.

According to Britannica, an EPIGRAM is a:
Short poem treating concisely, pointedly, and often satirically a single thought or event and often ending with a witticism or ingenious turn of thought.

By extension, the term applies to a terse, sage, or witty (often paradoxical) saying, usually in the form of a generalization.


Thus, the epigrams do not belong to longer works of poetry but appear independently on certain sites under certain circumstances. Wikipedia again answers your very question:

Ancient Greek
The epigram originated in Greece as a form for inscription on a monument or grave, hence the word 'epigram' from the Greek words meaning 'to write on'. Epigrams were thus much shorter than lyric poetry which developed from forms designed for performance accompanied by musical instruments.

One such monument inscription is Simonides's epitaph for the Spartan dead after the Battle of Thermopylae,which can be found in Herodotus' work The Histories (7.228), to the Spartans:

ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε
(O xein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti täde/
κείμεθα τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι.
keimetha tois keinon rhämasi peithomenoi.)
Which to keep the poetic context can be translated as:
Go tell the Spartans, stranger passing by
that here, obedient to their laws we lie
or more literally as:
Oh foreigner, tell the Lacedaemonians
that here we lie, obeying those words.
Epigrams were not defined by their subject matter, however. The largest surviving collection, the Greek Anthology, contains poems on love, inscriptions dedicating gifts to the gods, moral or philosophical advice, and invective. Nor were epigrams required to be witty (though many, especially invectives and satirical ones, were). The defining characteristics of an epigram were its length, often restricted to a single couplet, and its meter, almost always the elegiac couplet.

Many noted Greek writers composed epigrams, including some, who, like Plato, Solon and Aeschylus, were more famous for their work in other genres. The 'Anthology' contains examples from very early Greek history all the way into the Byzantine period, and even some examples by Christians. Epigrams were also written by women and other members of the less privileged classes. Nicarchus and Martial are two epigrammatists from the first century AD.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Epigram




fastxfurious

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Hey,

I'm really not sure if this is the right place to be posting this, but I can't find anywhere else, and I'm desperate for the help. I'm sorry if this is the wrong place, and if so, could someone please post me to the right place.

Anyway, I'm getting a tattoo on it, and I would really like the epigram from simonides about the spartans on it.

I'm concerned over the correct lettering of the ancient greek symbols. I've been given a few different ones. Could anyone tell me the correct one, or tell if they are both correct, but one is capitals, etc. Obviously I don't want to get a tattoo and get it the wrong words of symbols because I can't read greek.

These are the ones I've got:

Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι

Ώ ξειν’, αγγέλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι

As you can see some of the letters seemed to be accented differently, or different (for example one was 2 lines before the omega symbol, the 2nd has only the one line)

Also, is

 Ō ksein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tēide
keimetha, tois keinōn rhēmasi peithomenoi.

greek as well? As in, are the first 2 ancient greek, and this one simply modern greek? There doesn't seem to be any answers anywhere else on the net, so hoping you guys can help me.

If you any of you guys can help me out here, I'll be extremely grateful.

Thank you so much.

edit: really sorry if this should have gone in the ancient greek translation section, as I see there is a lot about tattoos there already. Thank you again
« Last Edit: 21 Jul, 2011, 00:25:20 by fastxfurious »

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fastxfurious

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Many thanks for your quick reply wings.

So if I use your one from above      Ὢ ξείν’, ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῆδε κείμεθα τοὶς κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι    <--- Is that lower case?

that will be safe to use on the tattoo? (like I said I really don't want to mess it up!), and it will come across correct with the right grammar, capitals etc? And as I've been reading, about the polytonic and full character case, what was the difference between the two I posted? Since I have the right quotation now, I'm simply curious, since unfortunately I can't understand this great language (but I wish I could)

Once again, thank you :) Now I've hopefully got the complete and grammatically correct translation I can give it to the artist tomorrow :)

edit: and also, is it safe to put it into any font, for example the one i want to use is "garamond" which seems to make all the characters and accents come across? I'm just so worried about copying the ancient greek properly onto the tattoo :)
« Last Edit: 21 Jul, 2011, 00:51:00 by fastxfurious »

billberg23

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Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι

Ώ ξειν’, αγγέλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι
The upper one is genuine traditional polytonic;  the lower one is the way Greeks of today write it since polytonic was abolished in 1977.  In both cases, however, the commas are optional and entirely modern.
Quote
Ō ksein', angellein Lakedaimoniois hoti tēide
keimetha, tois keinōn rhēmasi peithomenoi.
This is simply a transliteration of the ancient Greek, using the Roman alphabet.
The most authentically ancient transcription would be in upper case, since that matches the ancient letter forms:
Ω ΞΕΙΝΕ ΑΓΓΕΛΛΕΙΝ ΛΑΚΕΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΟΙΣ ΟΤΙ ΤΗΙΔΕ
ΚΕΙΜΕΘΑ ΤΟΙΣ ΚΕΙΝΩΝ ΡΗΜΑΣΙ ΠΕΙΘΟΜΕΝΟΙ

Simonides' two-line elegy would have looked pretty much like that on stone — no commas, no apostrophes, no diacritical marks, all capital letters.
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

fastxfurious

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The upper one is genuine traditional polytonic;  the lower one is the way Greeks of today write it since polytonic was abolished in 1977.  In both cases, however, the commas are optional and entirely modern.

Thank you so much! I'll use the top one then :) And since you say in its truest form it had no commas, I won't use them :)

Again, thank you. Is there a picture place anywhere I can you show you the whole thing ones it's done? I'm grateful for the help, and would like to show you the outcome :)

Cheers

Oh also, I think I edited it too late; can the traditional polytonic form copy across in most fonts? Photoshop automatically set it to garamond which seems to copy everything fine.

edit: checked it out.

The top one, Ὦ ξεῖν', ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ὅτι τῇδε κείμεθα, τοῖς κείνων ῥήμασι πειθόμενοι doesn't seem to copy well into garamond ,it has error boxes

The bottom one though, Ώ ξειν’, αγγέλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις ότι τήδε κείμεθα τοις κείνων ρήμασι πειθόμενοι seems to do it fine. Does this mean I have to use the bottom one instead? Sorry if this is a lot of hassle, but I am very grateful.

Will take a look at https://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php?topic=13486.0 and see if this answers my question :)
« Last Edit: 21 Jul, 2011, 01:21:21 by fastxfurious »

billberg23

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Is there a picture place anywhere I can you show you the whole thing ones it's done? I'm grateful for the help, and would like to show you the outcome :)
And we'd like to see it (as soon as the swelling goes down, of course).  You can post a photo here:  just select "Additional options" in your reply, and browse your desktop for the photo.
Quote
can the traditional polytonic form copy across in most fonts? Photoshop automatically set it to garamond which seems to copy everything fine.
Garamond is probably OK.  We like Tahoma, as you can see.
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

fastxfurious

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Sorry for another question billberg!

Apparently the whole quotation is too long to put on my tattoo, which is kind of understandable :(

So, my question is can this be shortened? For example, can it just read "go tell the spartans" and still make sense without the whole of the epigram?

I have a feeling that it's got to be a whole thing, but if it possible you could have the "go tell the spartans" that would be great :)

If so, could you tell me the correct ancient greek part for this?

Thanks so much :) ! (sorry if you wanted me to start a new topic; tell me if I need to and I will :)

billberg23

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The "go tell the Spartans" part of the epigram is just two Greek words: 
ἀγγέλλειν Λακεδαιμονίοις
If that's all you want the tattoo to say, then that's what it will say.  If you're OK with that, then by all means use just those two words.
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

fastxfurious

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Well, to me it will still mean the whole thing. The tattoo is already a spartan shield with a wolf and a sword hilt, so it's not just the epigram on it's own.

Ok, thanks :) As long as it still makes sense, and could easily be part of the whole quotation, I'll get that :) (someone who understands ancient greek wouldn't laugh at having just that on it's own, would they?)