Author Topic: τους φίλους λόγων τέχναιν επαίδευσας -> Using 2 artifices, you educated (taught) those who love rhetoric.  (Read 1245 times)

Jorsay

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Sorry, I don't know how to type Greek letters on my keyboard.

My question is, "Why are there two words in the dative case in this sentence?"

Thank you
« Last Edit: 09 Aug, 2008, 08:36:22 by billberg23 »


vbd.

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Namely? I can only see on word in dat.(and it could be gen. too), "texnain".
Texnain is gen. or dat. of dual number.

    s.             d.             pl.

nom. τεχνη    τεχνα    τεχναι

gen.   τεχνης    τεχναιν    τεχνων

dat.   τεχνηι    τεχναιν    τεχναις

acc.   τεχνην    τεχνα    τεχνας

voc.   τεχνη    τεχνα    τεχναι



In our case I think it is safe to say we're talking about the dat. case.
How do we know? By analyzing this sentence syntactically we can find the answer.

Starting from our verb, which is epaideusas (-a, -as, -e(n), -amen, -ate, -an), aorist indicative active second person, we understand the subject to be "you". Sy epaideusas = You taught.
Our object is "tous philous" which means the friends, or those who love. "Logwn" is gen. and defines "philous". Since you gave no context I can't be sure what the author is saying, but I'm thinking "logous" might refer to "rhetorics", so we'll just translate so far as "Sy epaideusas tous philous logwn" = "You taught the friends of rhetorics", or "You taught those who love rhetorics".
Now for the final key word, "texnain", it seems like its in dat. case because it defines "epaideusas" and indicates the way "you taught". It's called a "dativus instrumenti" in latin and indicates the instrument or mean of an action. So this "texnain", in our case is a dat. in dual number, that indicates how "you taught", so we should loosely translate as:
"Using 2 artifices, you educated(taught) those who love rhetorics."

Now I'm not entirely happy with this translation, and things would be much easier and convenient if instead of "texnain" we had "texna" or "texnas", but that's what the sentence you wrote is saying.
« Last Edit: 30 Jul, 2008, 17:31:52 by wings »
At last, I have peace.

Jorsay

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Thank you for the reply.  It is very helpful.  I am grateful that I can find someone to help me out.

To clarify, I tried to write τεχνην phonetically as 'texnain'.  Poor choice on my part.  I am teaching my 9 year old son ancient greek and this is an exercise from the second chapter of the book ("Greek, An Intensive Course" by Hansen and Quinn), so I am assuming that my translational possibilities are probably limited to what is covered in the first two chapters of the textbook.

I see my careless errors with mislabelling logwn and τεχνην.

I see from your explanation that τεχνην is accusative.  I believe that 'epaideusas' can take a double accusative, correct?  I think this would make the translation 'You taught your rhetoric friends skill." 

I am now wondering if logwn might modify τεχνην making the translation "You taught your friends speech skills."  Am I way off here?  If I am correct, how can I tell for sure which word logwn modifies?

Thank you again.  I am very impressed by the time you took to respond to my question.
« Last Edit: 30 Jul, 2008, 17:33:27 by wings »


vbd.

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OK, I understand.
On another note, don't mind the dual number: it's one of the least important things to learn, knowing it exists is enough.


So we have τούς φίλους λόγων τέχνην επαίδευσας

τέχνην is accusative, so is τούς φίλους, and you're right to believe επαίδευσας can take double accusative.

Now, you are also right to assume λόγων could modify φίλους.
Indeed, this sentence could mean both the things you suggested, and since we don't have a context it doesn't matter which way around we choose.
It is entirely up to you to decide whether λόγων modifies φίλους or τέχνην.
I don't feel like this sentence is entirely clear(which it could have been, had it been written just a bit differently, for example "επαίδευσας τους φίλους την των λόγων τέχνην"). Don't worry about it. It could happen in all languages. Consider "She gave her mother her coat"... Without context you can't possibly know who the coat belongs to, the mother or the child, or even to another female.

η των λόγων τέχνη would be the art of rhetorics


Good luck and if you have further questions feel free to ask.

τούς φίλους λόγων τέχνην επαίδευσας -> You taught your friends the art of rhetoric.
That seems to me like the better translation.
« Last Edit: 30 Jul, 2008, 18:22:04 by ev1H »
At last, I have peace.

Jorsay

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