Author Topic: Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος (Κατὰ Ἰωάννην 1:1) -> In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  (Read 9615 times)

banned8

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You were quite clear, Euterpe. I was referring to that one occasion when you tried to reason with the JWs. When I was about your age, I found out there was no point in carrying on a political discussion with a Marxist who would not change an iota in what Marx wrote. So I have steered clear of dogmatic people ever since, all the way to becoming quite rigid in my own support of some ideas. Let us say, I am dogmatic in my belief there should be no dogmas.

As a footnote, let me confess I allowed myself to be approached by two JW ladies several years ago and had a long conversation with them – only because one of them was really stunning!
« Last Edit: 17 Jan, 2009, 22:59:29 by spiros »


billberg23

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Well, if you want a full list, this meaning is the last entry of προς in my Bible dictionary, the translation given is (in company) with and the complete list of references is as follows:
Thanks, Ipap and nickel, that helps enormously.  So in the NT it does seem to mean "facing," "in front of," or (at least in the case of Matt 26:18) functions like the French chez.  This use of πρός with the accusative probably derives from an original sense of "over against," wouldn't you think?  Anyway, I should read one of those books about NT Greek sometime before I die.

I, too, must admit to spending a few hours with the JWs, if only to obtain 20  copies of their fantastically cheap ($1.00 each) Greek text of the NT with interlinear translation, which I use for teaching purposes.  (It's not 100% accurate, as I discovered to my chagrin last month when I posted an NT text and a watchful antegeia was online to spot my errors.)  Of course, that meant accepting a few copies of Watchtower and Awake!, but no harm done (except I guess I did say "Jehovah" instead of "Yahweh," Leon).
« Last Edit: 26 Nov, 2007, 06:04:15 by billberg23 »
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος



Philip

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So in the NT it does seem to mean "facing," "in front of," or (at least in the case of Matt 26:18) functions like the French chez.  This use of πρός with the accusative probably derives from an original sense of "over against," wouldn't you think?  

Jerome uses apud in the Vulgate, by which the older translations into English were influenced.  (Matt 26:18 at Iesus dixit ite in civitatem ad quendam et dicite ei magister dicit tempus meum prope est apud te facio pascha cum discipulis meis. 

Wycliff's (14th Century) translation:  18 Jhesus seide, Go ye into the citee to sum man, and seie to hym, The maistir seith, My tyme is nyy; at thee Y make paske with my disciplis. 

I guess it might be bei in German (cf Asterix chez les Belges > Asterix bei den Belgiern).  This is a very handy little prepositional sense whcih has no precisely corresponding one in English.
But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? How shall they understand that which is kept close in an unknown tongue?

THE TRANSLATORS TO THE READER
Preface to the King James Version 1611

Philip

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  Sorry, should have added John 1:1 (Wycliff)

In the bigynnyng was the word, and the word was at God, and God was the word.
But how shall men meditate in that, which they cannot understand? How shall they understand that which is kept close in an unknown tongue?

THE TRANSLATORS TO THE READER
Preface to the King James Version 1611

Leon

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So, in this context "god" in John 1:1 in Greek Orthodox Church's Bible is written without the definite article. I believe this to be correct.

Given that Θεὸς is anarthrous in its last appearance in John 1:1, is it not a mere assumption that this should be rendered definitive "God" (and "a god", for that matter)? What other grounds do you base your affirmation that this should be "God" and in what way can you discredit the Jehovah's Witnesses' translation?
«Όποιος ελεύθερα συλλογάται συλλογάται καλά»
- Ρήγας Φερραίος


billberg23

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H. W. Smyth, Greek Grammar, para. 1150:  "A predicate noun has no article, and is thus distinguished from the subject."
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

Apodictic

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Hello,

ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

I would like for someone to first of all translate the above to English. Please explain word by word what each Greek word means in English as best you can.

Secondly I would like to ask the following questions:

In Greek if someone wanted to say "A man" then they would just say the Greek word for "man" correct? In other words does Greek have a equivalent word meaning "a".

Thank you!

spiros

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Refer to previous messages and use online bible study tools, they are free ;)
http://www.translatum.gr/bible/search.htm
http://www.translatum.gr/bible/download.htm

John 1:1 is the first verse in the Gospel of John. The King James Version of the verse reads, "In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God". The phrase "the Word" (a translation of the Greek word "Logos") refers to Jesus, as indicated in other verses later in the same chapter. This verse, and the continuation of the ideas introduced in it throughout Johannine literature, connected the Christian understanding of Jesus to the philosophical idea of the Logos and the Hebrew Wisdom literature, and set the stage for later developments in Trinitarian theology and Christology.

Koine Greek    Ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ Λόγος, καὶ ὁ Λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν Θεόν, καὶ Θεὸς ἦν ὁ Λόγος.
Greek transliteration    en arche en ho logos kai ho logos en pros ton theon kai theos en ho logos.
Latin Vulgate    In principio erat Verbum et Verbum erat apud Deum et Deus erat Verbum.
Literal English    in beginning (or "original") was the word (or "saying"), and the word (or "saying") was with (lit. "towards" or "facing") the god, and god was the word (or "saying").

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/index.html?curid=7509546
« Last Edit: 18 Jan, 2009, 12:26:25 by spiros »

vbd.

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ἐν ἀρχῇ ἦν ὁ λόγος, καὶ ὁ λόγος ἦν πρὸς τὸν θεόν, καὶ θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος.

In Greek if someone wanted to say "A man" then they would just say the Greek word for "man" correct? In other words does Greek have a equivalent word meaning "a".

In addition to spiros' thorough reply, and to answer your second question, no, Greek does not have an equivalent word meaning "a". "τις", which means "someone", has a similar usage, so "ἀνήρ τις" would be "some/a/one man". I am guessing that you're trying to interpret the last words of the line you posted, "θεὸς ἦν ὁ λόγος". "θεός" here is a predicate noun (see above post by billberg).
At last, I have peace.