hot_post Author Topic: Aristotle, Categoriae 1a1-19  (Read 3877 times)

magus666

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Aristotle, Categoriae 1a1-19
« on: 25 Jan, 2009, 13:19:32 »
hi,
i need to translate these words and identify their grammatical form or how should i put it.
its in ancient greek so i hope i am at the right place... help appreaticed. thanks :)


Linkback: https://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php?topic=35082.0
« Last Edit: 25 Jan, 2009, 21:50:46 by vbd. »


wings

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Hello, magus66, and welcome to Translatum!

I am moving your question to the Ancient Greek > English forum.

Please read the forum rules (there is a button on top of each page). You should post a separate message for each word or phrase. The Ancient Greek forum moderators will help in splitting the answers.

vbd.

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Hello,

You are at the right place. It's just we'd like you to give us some context: where did you get these words from? If you could provide more of the text you're studying, and tell us what it is that you're reading (is it from a coursebook, is it from the bible, is it from some ancient author?), then we could look at every word separately. We could translate the words as they are, but as you will well know, words can be ambiguous, and what in one case means something, in another case means something else.
At last, I have peace.


magus666

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wings. so this means i should post one thread for each word?

vbd. the words are from Categories by Aristotle. i have an exam in two days (greek minimum) from that and i am quite at loss when it comes to grammatics. we will be given few words, something in the manner of those that i posted and we should identify all the grammatical phenomenons (sorry dont know the exact correct name in english). i can read them but i dont know really where to start so i can identify what kind of word class is it. also i just installed greek keyboard and dont know quite yet how to apply those accent and aspirate (?) marks on each letters so the words are without them. when i find out how to use them i will update them. :)

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magus666

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ah, well ok, but that would be quite a lot of threads. i will do it, but isnt it a bit more effective to leave it just in one thread... like a one long phrase. :)

can i post the threads at once or i can create them only one at a time?

btw if anyone can provide any answers on those greek words i would be grateful.


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τούτων
« Reply #6 on: 25 Jan, 2009, 15:21:18 »
You can post all your questions at once. No problem with us. :-)

But you should provide enough context for each word and wait till somebody answers.

We are keeping this thread for the first word (i.e. τούτων).
« Last Edit: 25 Jan, 2009, 15:22:49 by wings »

vbd.

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τουτων
« Reply #7 on: 25 Jan, 2009, 15:24:03 »
Alright, fair enough, we can help with that. You should give us a whole sentence though. Anyways, apparently all the words you posted are from the first lines of Categoriae.

As a start I'll type the text, with the words you need help with highlighted. Then we'll see how we'll split the topic and if it will prove practical to create a new thread for every word.

Ὁμώνυμα λέγεται ὧν ὄνομα μόνον κοινόν, ὁ δέ κατά τοὔνομα λόγος τῆς οὐσίας ἕτερος, οἷον ζῷον ὅ τε ἄνθρωπος καί τό γεγραμμένον. τούτων γάρ ὄνομα μόνον κοινόν, ὁ δέ κατά τοὔνομα λόγος τῆς οὐσίας ἕτερος. ἐάν γάρ ἀποδιδῷ τις τί ἐστιν αὐτῶν ἑκατέρῳ τό ζῴῳ εἶναι, ἴδιον ἑκατέρου λόγον ἀποδώσει. συνώνυμα δέ λέγεται ὧν τό τε ὄνομα κοινόν καί ὁ κατά τοὔνομα λόγος τῆς οὐσίας ὁ αὐτός, οἷον ζῷον ὅ τε ἄνθρωπος καί ὁ βοῦς. τούτων γάρ ἑκάτερον κοινῷ ὀνόματι προσαγορεύεται ζῷον, καί ὁ λόγος δέ τῆς οὐσίας ὁ αὐτός. ἐάν γάρ αποδιδῷ τις τόν ἑκατέρου λόγον τί ἐστιν αὐτῶν ἑκατέρῳ τό ζῴῳ εἶναι, τόν αὐτόν λόγον ἀποδώσει. παρώνυμα δέ λέγεται ὅσα ἀπό τινος διαφέροντα τῇ πτώσει τήν κατά τοὔνομα προσηγορίαν ἔχει, οἷον ἀπό τῆς γραμματικῆς ὁ γραμματικός καί ἀπό τῆς ἀνδρείας ὁ ἀνδρεῖος.
Τῶν λεγομένων τά μέν κατά συμπλοκήν λέγεται, τά δέ ἄνευ συμπλοκῆς. τά μέν οὖν κατά συμπλοκήν, οἷον ἄνθρωπος τρέχει, ἄνθρωπος νικᾷ. τά δέ ἄνευ συμπλοκῆς, οἷον ἄνθρωπος, βοῦς, τρέχει, νικᾷ.


So, you need help on that bit, right?
« Last Edit: 25 Jan, 2009, 15:41:51 by billberg23 »

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τούτων
« Reply #8 on: 25 Jan, 2009, 15:50:11 »
Does the teacher ask you simply to identify the part of speech (noun, verb, adjective, participle, etc.) of each of the terms?  Or does (s)he want gender, number, and case (for nouns);  person, number, tense, voice, and mood (for verbs);  etc.?  Or does (s)he want grammatical syntax (the function of each word in relation to other words in the sentence)?

If (s)he hasn't already given you some background knowledge or clues as to how this is done, it seems excessively cruel. 

If English is your second language, please let us know what your first language is;  there may be someone here who can explain things in that language, so you can fully understand what we're talking about.
« Last Edit: 25 Jan, 2009, 16:33:03 by billberg23 »
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

magus666

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τούτων
« Reply #9 on: 25 Jan, 2009, 21:03:44 »
vbd. yes, thats it. we have been reading first five chapters of Categories but the first one will do just fine. :)

so i need also the context in which are the words to indentify them correctly? because we will be given paper with only like ten-twelve words alone without any text context.

billberg23. i guess he will only want us to identify the word class (noun, verb...) and then the basic categories for each word, depending on if it is a noun or verb. the course is named "greek minimum" so identifying any advanced grammatical categories won't be neccessary i think.

my first language is Czech, but i doubt any here will speak it. its not really on forefront of languages. :)

vbd.

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Aristotle, Categoriae 1a1-19
« Reply #10 on: 25 Jan, 2009, 21:18:09 »
OK, I understand now. Sometimes you can't identify grammatically without context. For example in English, "blow" can be both a verb and a noun. Without context you can't know if it's a verb or a noun. Other words of course are unambiguous; they can only mean one thing.

For example, for "τούτων" what you want to know is that it's a pronoun, in plural number, genitive case, right? That's all there is to know grammatically, since you won't be needing to identify the words syntactically (if he wanted you to do that he'd definitely give you the context, otherwise there's no way to do it).
« Last Edit: 25 Jan, 2009, 21:51:04 by vbd. »

magus666

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ok, so here are all the words i need to translate and identify the respective grammatical categories (verb or noun). plus i re-posted the text vbd. provided in the earlier thread.

hope i got it right this time :)

Quote
Ὁμώνυμα λέγεται ὧν ὄνομα μόνον κοινόν, ὁ δέ κατά τοὔνομα λόγος τῆς οὐσίας ἕτερος, οἷον ζῷον ὅ τε ἄνθρωπος καί τό γεγραμμένον. τούτων γάρ ὄνομα μόνον κοινόν, ὁ δέ κατά τοὔνομα λόγος τῆς οὐσίας ἕτερος. ἐάν γάρ ἀποδιδῷ τις τί ἐστιν αὐτῶν ἑκατέρῳ τό ζῴῳ εἶναι, ἴδιον ἑκατέρου λόγον ἀποδώσει. συνώνυμα δέ λέγεται ὧν τό τε ὄνομα κοινόν καί ὁ κατά τοὔνομα λόγος τῆς οὐσίας ὁ αὐτός, οἷον ζῷον ὅ τε ἄνθρωπος καί ὁ βοῦς. τούτων γάρ ἑκάτερον κοινῷ ὀνόματι προσαγορεύεται ζῷον, καί ὁ λόγος δέ τῆς οὐσίας ὁ αὐτός. ἐάν γάρ αποδιδῷ τις τόν ἑκατέρου λόγον τί ἐστιν αὐτῶν ἑκατέρῳ τό ζῴῳ εἶναι, τόν αὐτόν λόγον ἀποδώσει. παρώνυμα δέ λέγεται ὅσα ἀπό τινος διαφέροντα τῇ πτώσει τήν κατά τοὔνομα προσηγορίαν ἔχει, οἷον ἀπό τῆς γραμματικῆς ὁ γραμματικός καί ἀπό τῆς ἀνδρείας ὁ ἀνδρεῖος. Τῶν λεγομένων τά μέν κατά συμπλοκήν λέγεται, τά δέ ἄνευ συμπλοκῆς. τά μέν οὖν κατά συμπλοκήν, οἷον ἄνθρωπος τρέχει, ἄνθρωπος νικᾷ. τά δέ ἄνευ συμπλοκῆς, οἷον ἄνθρωπος, βοῦς, τρέχει, νικᾷ.

ok, so here are the words (except the first one). most of them seem to be in the text, altho some in slightly different forms (like grammatikos x grammatikes):

τω ζωω

τις αποδωσει

εκατεροι

κοινω

τις τι

τη πτωσει

των λεγομενων

εστιν

γραμματικης

νικα

πεπαιδενται

« Last Edit: 25 Jan, 2009, 22:18:23 by vbd. »

magus666

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Aristotle, Categoriae 1a1-19
« Reply #12 on: 25 Jan, 2009, 22:59:03 »
yes, that would be it. i dont think he would have us also specify some details that rely on context.

can i also identify person (the gram. cat.) with pronouns or that goes only for verbs? btw what if the word has an article like ο, η, το? wouldnt that specify if it is a verb or noun?


vbd.

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Aristotle, Categoriae 1a1-19
« Reply #13 on: 25 Jan, 2009, 23:28:21 »
Well, pronouns have no person, but they do have gender, number and case. As you will see in the forum's index I have opened a new thread for every sentence the text you have to study. In there you will find the translation and also the words you requested to be identified.

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« Last Edit: 26 Jan, 2009, 12:48:02 by wings »