ὑδατώδης ὀῤῥὸς χυμοῦ -> watery fluid serum (Galen, De constitutione artis medicae ad Patrophilum 1.299.9)

Jon1001 · 16 · 3735

Jon1001

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The excerpt in the subject line comes from the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae at University of California, a quote from Galenus Med., De constitutione artis medicae ad Patrophilum
I am researching the history of the treatment of coccydynia, or coccyx pain. Medical authors in the 7th and 11th centuries have described treatment of this condition, and I am trying to find out if this goes back to Galen. I have been searching the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae using the term ὄρρος, which I understand means sacrum or rump.
Thanks
Jon
« Last Edit: 08 Dec, 2013, 03:44:39 by billberg23 »


billberg23

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What you've given us is a fragment of a sentence from a vast work, with no citation of chapter or paragraph to help us locate the passage and examine the complete thought.  The sentence speaks of a case "... even if there is an excess of blood.  But if the fluid is composed of yellow or black bile, or there is watery ?rump? ?of fluid? ..."
More straightforward, on the other hand, is the following definition from Galen's glossary of Hippocratic terms (Linguarum seu dictionum exoletarum Hippocratis explicatio) 19.127.2:
ὀῤῥωδέων: τῶν ἄχρι τοῦ ὄῤῥου ἐκτεινομένων. ὄῤῥος δὲ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ὀστέου τὸ πέρας, ὅπερ καὶ ὀῤῥοπύγιον
 καλεῖται.
"Rump parts:  the parts that extend to the rump.  The rump (ὄῤῥος), which is also called the tailbone, is the end of the sacral bone."
But of course nothing there about treatment of coccyx pain.  Does Galen not specifically use the word κόκκυξ somewhere?
It would make it easier for us to help if you could cite a specific passage.  And please, as advised, read the Rules before posting (click at top of page):  12-word translation limit.



Jon1001

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Thanks very much for that, and sorry for not supplying chapter and verse. The detail is Galenus Med., De constitutione artis medicae ad Patrophilum. {0057.006} Volume 1 page 299 line 9. And I will stick to 12 words in future.

I didn't search the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae for κόκκυξ because the online ancient Greek dictionary that I used gave no translation for coccyx, I could only find that in modern Greek, and so I expected I would just get lots of references to cuckoos. But now checking the Oxford English Dictionary entry for coccyx, I find that it gives: Etymology:  < Latin coccȳx, < Greek κόκκυξ, -ῡγ- cuckoo, also in Galen the os coccygis, or cuckoo bone, so called because in humans it was supposed to resemble the bill of the cuckoo. (What would os coccygis be in Greek?)

So I will try searching on  κόκκυξ as well, when I can - I can't access the Thesaurus Linguae Graecae from home.

But it is still worth searching on ὄρρος, as in old texts the coccyx is often referred to as the 'end of the sacrum', or even as the sacrum.


billberg23

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In the meantime, I've checked Galen for κόκκυξ, so you can save yourself that effort.  He only uses it once
(De ossibus ad tirones 2.762.16) to describe the "bone at the end of the spine" which is "composed of three parts."  No mention of maladies.
I'll try to come up soon with a translation of your original passage.  Thanks for the reference.  And welcome to the Forum!



dimace

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κοκκυγωδυνία -> infection of the κόκκυξ, requires often medical attention and / or operation.   
South Africa (1961-1994) presidents: Charles Swat, Jozua Naude, Jacobus Fouche, Johannes de Klerk, Nicolaas Diederichs, Marais Viljoen, Balthazar Vorster,  Pieter Botha, Chris Heunis, Frederik de Klerk.


billberg23

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Jon, as it turns out, we're barking up the wrong tree in thinking that we're dealing with the word for "rump" (ὄῤῥος, also spelled ὄρρος) in your original passage.  According to the authoritative Liddell-Scott Greek Lexicon, the ὀῤῥός here (also spelled ὀρός) is "the watery part of the blood" or "blood serum."  And that's the only meaning that makes sense in this context, which has to do with another type of infection entirely — no mention of the back, the spine, the tailbone, etc.   
« Last Edit: 08 Dec, 2013, 23:03:13 by billberg23 »


Jon1001

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dimace - Thanks, where does κοκκυγωδυνία come from? Although coccydynia is sometimes associated with infection (often described as tuberculous pre-20th century), is it more often caused by a fall and consequent dislocation of the coccyx.

billberg23 - Thanks for the κόκκυξ search. That's interesting about the blood, and that seems to dispose of that particular quote from Galen as being unrelated to my search.

The search of Thesaurus Linguae Graecae turned up 21 other references to ὄρρος in Galen's works. Is that too many to post here? If it is allowable, should I post them in this thread or in separate threads?


dimace

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Welcome friend!

κόκκυξ + οδύνη (grief) = κοκκυγωδυνία

see also: κύστις (bladder) κόκκυγος (med.)

South Africa (1961-1994) presidents: Charles Swat, Jozua Naude, Jacobus Fouche, Johannes de Klerk, Nicolaas Diederichs, Marais Viljoen, Balthazar Vorster,  Pieter Botha, Chris Heunis, Frederik de Klerk.


billberg23

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Instead of cluttering the site with a long series of rumps, I'm going to go through the TLG references myself (as I have time), and post here the passages, if any, where ὄρρος seems relevant to coccyx pain or its treatment.  That shouldn't be too much of a pain in the butt.  (-:
BTW, κοκκυγωδυνία doesn't occur in ancient Greek.  It's an exclusively modern medical term.


dimace

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Your' re right! It's only to show the usage of κόκκυξ in today's medicine. 
South Africa (1961-1994) presidents: Charles Swat, Jozua Naude, Jacobus Fouche, Johannes de Klerk, Nicolaas Diederichs, Marais Viljoen, Balthazar Vorster,  Pieter Botha, Chris Heunis, Frederik de Klerk.


Jon1001

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I thought there was only one as well. I access it through the Bodleian Library, Oxford, but I can't check the details at the moment. I searched on ὄρρος without any restriction as to author. The other Galen ones were:

 Galenus Med., De elementis ex Hippocrate libri ii. {0057.008} Kühn volume 1 page 496 line 8.   
ἐξ ἐναντίων τε καὶ διαφερόντων συγκείμενον. ὡς οὖν ἐν τῷ γάλακτι τὸ μέν ἐστιν ὀρρός, τὸ δὲ τυρός, οὕτως ἐν αἵματι τὸ μὲν οἷον ἰχὼρ αἵματος ἀνάλογον ὀρρῷ γάλακτος,
 
Galenus Med., De naturalibus facultatibus. {0057.010} Kühn volume 2 page 58 line 14.   
τῶν πλοκάμων, εἰς τὸ κάταντες φέρεται καὶ τοῦτο μὲν ὀρρὸς ἐπονομάζεται• τὸ λοιπὸν δὲ τὸ παχὺ τὸ μέλλον ἔσεσθαι τυρός, ὡς ἂν οὐ παραδεχομένων αὐτὸ τῶν  (15)

Galenus Med., De naturalibus facultatibus. {0057.010} Kühn volume 2 page 58 line 18.   
νυν, εἴπερ οὕτω μέλλει διηθεῖσθαι τῶν νεφρῶν ὁ τοῦ αἵματος ὀρρός, ἅπαν ἐπ’ αὐτοὺς ἥκειν χρὴ τὸ αἷμα
(59.) καὶ μὴ τὸ μὲν ναί, τὸ δ’ οὔ. ‖ πῶς οὖν ἔχει τὸ φαι-
 
Galenus Med., De victu attenuante. {0057.019} Section 114 line 1.   
λεύεϲθαι.
(114.)   Καὶ μὲν δὴ καὶ ὁ τοῦ γάλακτοϲ ὀρρὸϲ ἐκ τῶν λεπτυνόντων ἐϲτὶ
πρὸϲ τῷ ὑπάγειν τὴν γαϲτέρα• χρῆϲθαι τοίνυν αὐτῷ πολλάκιϲ ἔκ τι-
 
Galenus Med., De sanitate tuenda libri vi. {0057.036} Kühn volume 6 page 65 line 8.   
τέρῳ περιττώματι τῆϲ τροφῆϲ διεξέρχεται. τὸ δὲ ἐν φλεψὶ καὶ ἀρτη-
ρίαιϲ περίττωμα τοιοῦτόν ἐϲτιν, οἷον ὀρρὸϲ ἐν τῷ πηγνυμένῳ γάλακτι,
καθαίροντεϲ δὲ καὶ τοῦτο οἱ νεφροὶ τῇ κύϲτει παραπέμπουϲιν• ἡ δ’
 
Galenus Med., De symptomatum causis libri iii. {0057.044} Volume 7 page 234 line 17.   
οἷον μάλιστα τρόπον ἐπ’ ἀτονίας ἥπατος καὶ νεφρῶν οὐρεῖται
καὶ κάτω δὲ διαχωρεῖται πολλάκις αἱματώδης ὀῤῥός. εἰρήσεται
δὲ ὑπὲρ αὐτῶν ὀλίγον ὕστερον, ἐπειδὰν ἐπέλθωμεν πρότερον @1
 
Galenus Med., De crisibus libri iii. {0057.064} Kühn volume 9 page 606 line 9.   
ἐχόντων ὀρθῶς εἶπεν ὡς σωτήρια μὲν ἱκανῶς ἐστι, χρονιώτερα δὲ τῶν
ἀρτίως ὀνομασθέντων ἡμιπέπτων. αἵματος γὰρ ὀρρὸς ἐπιχρώζει τὰ
τοιαῦτα. χρὴ δ’ οὐ τοῦτο μόνον ἀλλὰ καὶ τῆς πυρρᾶς τι μεμίχθαι χολῆς.  (10)
 
Galenus Med., De simplicium medicamentorum temperamentis ac facultatibus libri xi. {0057.075} Volume 11 page 488 line 10.   
δήξεις τὸ ἁλμῶδες, ὥσπερ καὶ τὸ μελίκρατον καὶ ἅλμη καὶ
γάλακτος ὀῤῥός. συνεξάγονται γὰρ σὺν αὐτοῖς ἐνίοτε ταῦτα  (10)
τὸν τὴν δῆξιν ἐργαζόμενον χυμὸν, ἰάματά τε γίγνεται δή-
 
Galenus Med., De simplicium medicamentorum temperamentis ac facultatibus libri xi. {0057.075} Volume 12 page 266 line 7.   
ται ἐπί τε παρωτίδων καὶ βουβώνων.
  [ηʹ. Περὶ ὀῤῥοῦ γάλακτος.] Ὁ δὲ ὀῤῥὸς, ὡς εἴρηται,
ῥυπτικὴν ἔχει δύναμιν, ὑπαγωγῆς τε γαστρὸς ἕνεκα λαμβά-
 
Galenus Med., De theriaca ad Pisonem. {0057.079} Volume 14 page 226 line 13.   
τὸ δὲ γάλα διαιρούμενον ὑφ’ ἡμῶν ἐναντίας ἐν τῇ χρείᾳ
δυνάμεις ἐπιδείκνυται. ὁ μὲν γὰρ ὀῤῥὸς αὐτοῦ πινόμενος
ἐκλύει τὴν γαστέρα, ἐσθιόμενος δὲ ὁ τυρὸς ἐπέχει αὐτὴν
 
Galenus Med., In Hippocratis prorrheticum i commentaria iii. {0057.088} Kühn volume 16 page 794 line 3.   
τῆϲ διαθέϲεωϲ αὐτῆϲ ϲαφῆ τὰ ϲυμπτώματα• πλήθουϲ γὰρ ἠθροιϲμένου
κατὰ τὰϲ φλέβαϲ λεπτὸϲ μέν τιϲ ὀρρὸϲ αὐτῷ ϲυρρέων εἰϲ τὴν γαϲτέρα
τὰϲ καρδιαλγίαϲ ἐργάζεται προϲαναβαίνων ἐπὶ τὸ κατ’ αὐτὴν ϲτόμα,
 

Galenus Med., In Hippocratis librum iii epidemiarum commentarii iii. {0057.090} Kühn volume 17a page 535 line 1.   
ψυχρὸν τὸν τοῦ φλέγματοϲ, ἀδηκτότατον δὲ καὶ μάλιϲτα οἰκεῖον ἡμῖν (15)
(535.) τὸ αἷμα. καὶ μέντοι καὶ ὡϲ ὀρρόϲ | ἐϲτι τῶν κατὰ τὰϲ φλέβαϲ χυμῶν
τὸ οὖρον, αὐτὸϲ ἡμᾶϲ ἐδίδαξεν, ὥϲτ’ εὔλογόν ἐϲτιν, ὅταν αἷμα πλέον
 
Galenus Med., In Hippocratis librum vi epidemiarum commentarii vi. {0057.091} Kühn volume 17a page 983 line 8.   
των δὲ ἐν τῷ Τιμαίῳ τοιοῦτόν τι ϲημαίνει διὰ τῆϲ ἰχώρων προϲη-
γορίαϲ ὧδέ πωϲ λέγων• “ἰχὼρ δὲ ὁ μὲν αἵματοϲ ὀρρὸϲ πρᾷοϲ, ὁ δὲ
μελαίνηϲ χολῆϲ ὀξείαϲ τε ἄγριοϲ.” ἰχωροειδὲϲ οὖν αἷμα καλεῖται @1
 
Galenus Med., In Hippocratis librum vi epidemiarum commentarii vi. {0057.091} Kühn volume 17a page 983 line 12.   
ἄδηκτον, ἀλλὰ δακνώδη καὶ διαβρωτικήν. εἰπόντοϲ δὲ τοῦ Πλάτω-
νοϲ “ἰχὼρ δὲ ὁ μὲν αἵματοϲ ὀρρὸϲ πρᾷοϲ, ὁ δὲ μελαίνηϲ χολῆϲ
ὀξείαϲ τε ἄγριοϲ,” εὔδηλον ἐγένετο ἡμῖν, καθάπερ ἐπὶ τοῦ γάλακτοϲ
 
Galenus Med., In Hippocratis librum vi epidemiarum commentarii vi. {0057.091} Kühn volume 17a page 984 line 4.   
ἧττον δὲ χαλεπὸϲ ὁ τῆϲ ξανθῆϲ, καὶ τούτου μᾶλλον ὁ τοῦ φλέγμα-
τοϲ, ἐπιεικέϲτατοϲ δὲ πάντων ὁ τοῦ αἵματοϲ ὀρρόϲ τε καὶ ἰχώρ. οὐδὲν
γὰρ ἐν τῷ παρόντι διοίϲει λέγειν οὕτωϲ ἢ ἐκείνωϲ, ἀλλ’ ἐπειδὴ διττῶϲ  (5)
 
Galenus Med., In Hippocratis librum vi epidemiarum commentarii vi. {0057.091} Kühn volume 17a page 984 line 14.   
φόβου, ποιήϲει τὸ ἰχωροειδὲϲ αἷμα καὶ ἀγρύπνουϲ γε προϲέτι.
ἐὰν δὲ καὶ μοχθηροῦ χυμοῦ τινοϲ, μὴ μόνον τοῦ αἵματοϲ ὀρρὸϲ ἐν
τοῖϲ αἱματικοῖϲ ἀγγείοιϲ περιέχηται, καὶ παραφροϲύναϲ καὶ φρενίτιδαϲ  (15)
 
Galenus Med., In Hippocratis librum vi epidemiarum commentarii vi. {0057.091} Kühn volume 17a page 988 line 1.   
βούλονται τῶν ἐφεξῆϲ γεγραμμένων <εἶναι>, τὸ “ὡϲ” ἀφαιροῦϲι
(988.) καὶ τοιάνδε τινὰ ποιοῦϲι τὴν λέξιν• “τοῖϲ ἐμπυήμαϲιν | ὀρρὸϲ τοῖϲι
μέλλουϲιν ἐκπυΐϲκειν, αἱ κοιλίαι ἐκταράϲϲονται,” γνώριϲμα τῶν μελλόν-
 
Galenus Med., In Hippocratis aphorismos commentarii vii. {0057.092} Volume 17b page 359 line 7.   
πλεονάζον, αἵματος τὸ ποιητέον τὴν κένωσιν καὶ δὴ καὶ
εἰ ὀῤῥὸς αἵματος ἐκείνου. τεκμαίρεσθαι δὲ δεῖ τὸν πλεονά-
ζοντα χυμὸν τῇ χρόᾳ, πλὴν εἴ τινες ὑποχωρήσαιεν εἰς τὸ
 
Galenus Med., In Hippocratis prognosticum commentaria iii. {0057.099} Kühn volume 18b page 151 line 1.   
τοῦτο τοῦ πρώτου γίνεται, ϲωτήριον δὲ κάρτα. |
(151.)   Ὅταν αἵματοϲ ὀρρὸϲ ϲυναπέρχηται τῷ οὔρῳ, φαίνεται μὲν κατὰ
τὴν χρόαν ὑπέρυθρον, ἐνδείκνυται δὲ περιουϲίαν αἵματοϲ οὐκ ἀκρι-
 
Galenus Med., In Hippocratis prognosticum commentaria iii. {0057.099} Kühn volume 18b page 183 line 12.   
πτύονται, τὰ γνωρίϲματα φέρουϲαι τοῦ τὴν περιπνευμονίαν ἐργαϲα-
μένου ῥεύματοϲ (ἐκείνου γάρ εἰϲιν οἷον ὀρρόϲ τιϲ). ἔϲονται τοιγαροῦν,
ἐὰν μὲν χολώδηϲ ἱκανῶϲ ὁ χυμὸϲ ᾖ, ξανθαὶ μόνον, ἐὰν δὲ αἱματώδηϲ,
 
Galenus Med., Linguarum seu dictionum exoletarum Hippocratis explicatio. {0057.106} Volume 19 page 127 line 2.   
(127.) ὀῤῥωδέων: τῶν ἄχρι τοῦ ὄῤῥου ἐκτεινομένων.
ὄῤῥος δὲ τοῦ ἱεροῦ ὀστέου τὸ πέρας, ὅπερ καὶ ὀῤῥοπύγιον
  καλεῖται.


billberg23

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Thanks, that explains everything.  If you look closely at the accents, you'll find that in every case (except the last) the accent is on the final syllable, which makes ὀρρὸϲ the word for "serum," not "rump."  That leaves only the last instance, the one I mentioned in a previous post, as Galen's sole reference to ὄρρος, "rump."
So I'm afraid we'll never know Galen's treatment (if any) for coccyx pain.  But at least you can feel satisfied that you've thoroughly covered that possibility.



billberg23

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In the meantime, I've checked Galen for κόκκυξ, so you can save yourself that effort.  He only uses it once
(De ossibus ad tirones 2.762.16) to describe the "bone at the end of the spine" which is "composed of three parts."
Sorry, I neglected the several times he uses it in the genitive (κόκκυγος) in his descriptive anatomy (De anatomicis administrationibus 2.310-311), and in a few other anatomical works — again, without mentioning treatment for coccyx pain.
« Last Edit: 13 Dec, 2013, 07:55:58 by billberg23 »


Jon1001

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Thanks again. I may at some point get around to writing up about this for one of the medical history journals. If I do, how should I acknowledge your help in finding the (negative) evidence about Galen?


 

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