Author Topic: γλυκύ δ᾽ἀπείρῳ πόλεμος, πεπειραμένων δέ τις ταρβεῖ προσιόντα, νιν καρδίᾳ περισσῶς -> A sweet thing is war to the inexperienced, but anyone who has tasted it trembles at its approach, exceedingly, in his heart (Pindar, for the Thebans, fr. 110)  (Read 2024 times)

tschuddy

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I know the translation for this, but can someone help me convert this into all capitals? I've done a lot of research and the word: δ᾽ἀπείρῳ is confusing me. It's for a tattoo I want to make sure and get it right. Thanks to anyone who is kind enough to help. Have a great day!
« Last Edit: 01 Apr, 2018, 11:01:58 by spiros »


tschuddy

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I just wanted to add that the phrase in English is "War is sweet to those who have no experience of it, but the experienced man trembles exceedingly at heart on its approach." I retrieved the phrase from: http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Pindar

Also, if anyone can provide any insight to use of punctuation in Ancient Greek, I'd appreciate it. I understand that most Ancient Greek was written without lowercase, and without punctuation, and my goal is to have the quote as close as possible to how it would have originally appeared. Thanks again!

billberg23

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We can consider the question of punctuation once we've established the text.  Your Wikipedia quote represents some modern scholar's attempt to reconcile the two main sources for this fragment of Pindar (110).  The first source is Eustathius' commentary on the Iliad (3.186.18), who quotes
γλυκὺς ἀπείρῳ πόλεμος.
πεπειραμένων δέ τις ταρβεῖ προσιόντα.

The second is a longer version in Stobaeus (ecl. 4.16.6):
γλυκὺ δὲ πόλεμος ἀπείροισιν, ἐμπείρων δέ τις
ταρβεῖ προσιόντα νιν καρδίᾳ περισσῶς  

Metrical considerations caused the modern editor to take the δὲ (which only means "and" or "but") from Stobaeus and contract it to δ' before the singular ἀπείρῳ ("for the inexperienced one").  Otherwise, he follows Eustathius' word order, but then adds the final three words from Stobaeus, which are not in Eustathius.
In any case, you see how punctuation is an exclusively modern concern.  And if you're going to use upper case, it won't be appropriate to use punctuation at all.  Or contractions.  So the Wikipedia version (with the usual Wikipedia misspelling corrected) would look like this:

ΓΛΥΚΥ ΔΕ ΑΠΕΙΡΩΙ ΠΟΛΕΜΟΣ  ΠΕΠΕΙΡΑΜΕΝΩΝ ΔΕ ΤΙΣ ΤΑΡΒΕΙ ΠΡΟΣΙΟΝΤΑ ΝΙΝ ΚΑΡΔΙΑΙ ΠΕΡΙΣΣΩΣ
For a font, you'll probably want Lithos Pro, which you should check out on the Web.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar, 2011, 15:49:46 by billberg23 »
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος


tschuddy

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Thanks so much, Billberg23. My best guess was:

ΓΛΥΚΥ ∆Ε ΑΠΕΙΡΩ ΠΟΛΕΜΟΣ ΠΕΠΕΙΡΑΜΕΝΩΝ ∆Ε ΤΙΣ ΤΑΡΒΕΙ ΠΡΟΣΙΟΝΤΑ ΝΙΝ ΚΑΡ∆ΙΑ ΠΕΡΙΣΣΩΣ

I assume the discrepancies are from the "usual Wikipedia misspellings." (That line made me crack up, by the way.)

I downloaded Lithos Pro--thanks for the suggestion. It has a more "original" look, as opposed to the font I was planning on using.

If my goal is authenticity, what version (Eustathius' or Stobaeus') do you believe would be the most appropriate? Or should I just stick with the Wikipedia quote? I'm leaning towards one of the former two.

Finally, I'm new here, and have no idea how I can give back or contribute to the forum. I'm far from a Greek scholar. Any suggestions?
« Last Edit: 09 Mar, 2011, 15:50:43 by billberg23 »

billberg23

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I assume the discrepancies are from the "usual Wikipedia misspellings." (That line made me crack up, by the way.)
On the other hand, such errors are common: most people don't know how to do upper case datives.
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If my goal is authenticity, what version (Eustathius' or Stobaeus') do you believe would be the most appropriate?
I'd stick with Eustathius.  He has the more difficult (and therefore probably more authentically Pindaric) reading πεπειραμένων, and he's more succinct (I'm not entirely confident about νιν καρδίᾳ περισσῶς).  Stobaeus sounds a little too easy, as if he relies on memory without consulting the original text. (But who am I to be critical? (-:)
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Finally, I'm new here, and have no idea how I can give back or contribute to the forum.
You're doing fine.  Just spread the word about the forum, and check "unread posts" from time to time to see if you know something we don't.  And welcome!
P.S. I do apologize for speaking earlier of a "papyrus" instead of "Stobaeus."  The text was so fragmentary in spots that I took it, at first glance, to be a papyrus!  Very sloppy of me, and I've taken the liberty of correcting both my posts and yours on that detail.
« Last Edit: 09 Mar, 2011, 15:59:45 by billberg23 »
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

tschuddy

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Thanks again. I consulted with the tattoo artist today and it looks like the full quote isn't feasible, so I'll be limited to the first line--War is sweet to the inexperienced. I'm going with your advice and using the quote from Eustathius (from your first reply):

γλυκὺς ἀπείρῳ πόλεμος.

Converted to capital letters, omitting the punctuation, and adding a sigma (which wasn't present in my initial post from Wikiquote) to the end of the first word I get:

ΓΛΥΚΥΣ ΑΠΕΙΡΩΙ ΠΟΛΕΜΟΣ

Is that correct? I just wanted to confirm before it becomes permanent tomorrow, haha.

Finally I decided to do my own letters, based off of Lithos Pro as well as some pictures of inscriptions and papyrus that I found online (to individualize it a little). Is it true that the Ancient Greeks didn't even use spaces? I noticed that in some of the pictures I found. Frankly, this whole process has been enlightening from beginning to end, and I DEFINITELY appreciate your help. I'll check the posts from time to time, and perhaps one day I can add some value to the board. Thanks again!





billberg23

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Converted to capital letters, omitting the punctuation, and adding a sigma (which wasn't present in my initial post from Wikiquote) to the end of the first word I get:

ΓΛΥΚΥΣ ΑΠΕΙΡΩΙ ΠΟΛΕΜΟΣ

Is that correct?
Yes, that's just right.
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Is it true that the Ancient Greeks didn't even use spaces?
Not until late antiquity.  But it won't hurt to leave your spaces, and will make it easier for you and everyone else to read.  Good luck!
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος