Author Topic: Σάββατον, sabbaton, Sabbath - can this mean "week"?  (Read 7486 times)

sven

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English is not my mother tonque, so please excuse if some of my writing sounds strange, I have a question on bible translation, does Greek sabbaton really mean weak beside Sabbath, the seventh day of the weeK?

Almost all bible says Jesus' ressurection was on the first day of the week, but I have doubts if this true.

this are the verses:

ΟΨΕ ΔΕ ΣΑΒΒΑΤΩΝ ΤΗ ΕΠΙΦΩΣΚΟΥΣΗ ΕΙΣ ΜΙΑΝ ΣΑΒΒΑΤΩΝ ΗΛΘΕΝ ΜΑΡΙΑ Η ΜΑΓΔΑΛΗΝΗ ΚΑΙ Η ΑΛΛΗ ΜΑΡΙΑ ΘΕΩΡΗΣΑΙ ΤΟΝ ΤΑΦΟΝ

ΚΑΙ ΛΙΑΝ ΠΡΩΙ ΤΗΣ ΜΙΑΣ ΣΑΒΒΑΤΩΝ ΕΡΧΟΝΤΑΙ ΕΠΙ ΤΟ ΜΝΗΜΕΙΟΝ ΑΝΑΤΕΙΛΑΝΤΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΗΛΙΟΥ

ΑΝΑΣΤΑΣ ΔΕ ΠΡΩΙ ΠΡΩΤΗ ΣΑΒΒΑΤΟΥ ΕΦΑΝΗ ΠΡΩΤΟΝ ΜΑΡΙΑ ΤΗ ΜΑΓΔΑΛΗΝΗ ΑΦ ΗΣ ΕΚΒΕΒΛΗΚΕΙ ΕΠΤΑ ΔΑΙΜΟΝΙΑ

ΤΗ ΔΕ ΜΙΑ ΤΩΝ ΣΑΒΒΑΤΩΝ ΟΡΘΡΟΥ ΒΑΘΕΟΣ ΗΛΘΟΝ ΕΠΙ ΤΟ ΜΝΗΜΑ ΦΕΡΟΥΣΑΙ Α ΗΤΟΙΜΑΣΑΝ ΑΡΩΜΑΤΑ ΚΑΙ ΤΙΝΕΣ ΣΥΝ ΑΥΤΑΙΣ

ΤΗ ΔΕ ΜΙΑ ΤΩΝ ΣΑΒΒΑΤΩΝ ΜΑΡΙΑ Η ΜΑΓΔΑΛΗΝΗ ΕΡΧΕΤΑΙ ΠΡΩΙ ΣΚΟΤΙΑΣ ΕΤΙ ΟΥΣΗΣ ΕΙΣ ΤΟ ΜΝΗΜΕΙΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΒΛΕΠΕΙ ΤΟΝ ΛΙΘΟΝ ΗΡΜΕΝΟΝ ΕΚ ΤΟΥ ΜΝΗΜΕΙΟΥ

ΟΥΣΗΣ ΟΥΝ ΟΨΙΑΣ ΤΗ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΕΚΕΙΝΗ ΤΗ ΜΙΑ ΤΩΝ ΣΑΒΒΑΤΩΝ ΚΑΙ ΤΩΝ ΘΥΡΩΝ ΚΕΚΛΕΙΣΜΕΝΩΝ ΟΠΟΥ ΗΣΑΝ ΟΙ ΜΑΘΗΤΑΙ ΣΥΝΗΓΜΕΝΟΙ ΔΙΑ ΤΟΝ ΦΟΒΟΝ ΤΩΝ ΙΟΥΔΑΙΩΝ ΗΛΘΕΝ Ο ΙΗΣΟΥΣ ΚΑΙ ΕΣΤΗ ΕΙΣ ΤΟ ΜΕΣΟΝ ΚΑΙ ΛΕΓΕΙ ΑΥΤΟΙΣ ΕΙΡΗΝΗ ΥΜΙΝ

I don't think mia ton sabbaton does mean first day of the week, the Greek of the Septuagint has an own word for week εβδομαδας and first day should be protos hemera as far as I know, e.g in Mark 14:12

ΚΑΙ ΤΗ ΠΡΩΤΗ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΤΩΝ ΑΖΥΜΩΝ ΟΤΕ ΤΟ ΠΑΣΧΑ ΕΘΥΟΝ ΛΕΓΟΥΣΙΝ ΑΥΤΩ ΟΙ ΜΑΘΗΤΑΙ ΑΥΤΟΥ ΠΟΥ ΘΕΛΕΙΣ ΑΠΕΛΘΟΝΤΕΣ ΕΤΟΙΜΑΣΩΜΕΝ ΙΝΑ ΦΑΓΗΣ ΤΟ ΠΑΣΧΑ

On the first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread...

I would be very grateful if you could help me, does or at least can mia ton sabbaton mean first day of the week?
Was sabbaton ever used in ancient secular Greek to mean week ?

How would you translate these verses?

« Last Edit: 23 Mar, 2009, 16:17:34 by spiros »


billberg23

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Re: Σάββατον, sabbaton, Sabbath - can this mean "week"?
« Reply #1 on: 23 Mar, 2009, 16:53:53 »
This subject was pretty well covered here a few years ago.  See https://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php?topic=6592.0.  Hope it helps!
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sven

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Re: Σάββατον, sabbaton, Sabbath - can this mean "week"?
« Reply #2 on: 23 Mar, 2009, 17:57:32 »
thanks but this is what I allways read. As I said I doubt this, church tradition might have forced a new meaning upon some words.

In Mark 14:12 protos hemera ton azymon means first day of the Feast of Unleavened Bread

but in Mark 16:2 mia ton sabbaton shall mean first day of the week? - why not protos hemera ton ebdomadas?

The LXX has an own word for week, Leviticus 23:15

και αριθμησετε υμεις απο της επαυριον των σαββατων απο της ημερας ης αν προσενεγκητε το δραγμα του επιθεματος επτα εβδομαδας ολοκληρους

From the day after the Sabbath, the day you brought the sheaf of the wave offering, count off seven full weeks.

Luke 18:12 is also a verse where sabbaton is traditionally translated "week"

ΝΗΣΤΕΥΩ ΔΙΣ ΤΟΥ ΣΑΒΒΑΤΟΥ ΑΠΟΔΕΚΑΤΩ ΠΑΝΤΑ ΟΣΑ ΚΤΩΜΑΙ

I fast twice a week and give a tenth of all I get.

is this correct?, there are Bible intern hints that to fast two times on a sabbath day is meant, not to fast two times a weak (Esther 4:16)



billberg23

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Re: Σάββατον, sabbaton, Sabbath - can this mean "week"?
« Reply #3 on: 23 Mar, 2009, 18:45:39 »
From the biggest ancient Greek -> English dictionary there is (Liddell-Scott-Jones):

Σάββᾰτ-ον, τό, the Hebrew Sabbath, i.e. Rest (
δηλοῖ δὲ ἀνάπαυσιν . . τὸ ὄνομα J.AJ1.1.1), LXX Ex. 16.23, al., Ev.Marc.6.2,al.: freq. in pl. of the single day, PCair.Zen.762.6 (iii B.C.), LXX 4 Ki. 4.23; ὀψὲ σαββάτων Ev.Matt.28.1; ἡ ἡμέρα τῶν ς. LXX Nu.15.32, Ev.Luc.4.16, al. (but ἡ ἡμ. τοῦ ς. ib.13.14): heterocl. dat. pl. σάββασι(ν) LXX 1 Ma.2.38, J.BJ1.7.3, al., Ev.Marc.2.23, al., freq. with v.l. σαββάτοις; but σάββασι is certain in AP5.159 (Mel.).
period of seven days, week, εἰς μίαν σαββάτων toward the first day of the week, Ev.Matt.28.1; κατὰ μίαν σαββάτου 1 Ep.Cor.16.2; πρώτῃ σαββάτου Ev.Marc.16.9; τῇ μιᾷ τῶν ς. ib.2, Ev.Jo.20.1; δὶς τοῦ ς. Ev.Luc.18.12.
Σαβάτ, the 11th month of the Hebr. year, nearly = February, LXX 1 Ma.16.14.
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sven

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Re: Σάββατον, sabbaton, Sabbath - can this mean "week"?
« Reply #4 on: 23 Mar, 2009, 18:59:52 »
Quote
period of seven days, week, εἰς μίαν σαββάτων toward the first day of the week, Ev.Matt.28.1; κατὰ μίαν σαββάτου 1 Ep.Cor.16.2; πρώτῃ σαββάτου Ev.Marc.16.9; τῇ μιᾷ τῶν ς. ib.2, Ev.Jo.20.1; δὶς τοῦ ς. Ev.Luc.18.12.

thanks, but this are only references from the New Testament itself,
does this dictionary give any source where σαββάτων is used as week outside the New Testament!?, e.g. in secular Greek literature or ancient Jewish writings in Greek.


can mia ton sabbaton be translated as one day of the sabbaths  or one of the sabbath days?

a bible commentary I'm reading at the moment says mia is a cardinal number and simply means 'one' and should not be translated with 'first', if the Greek grammar makes it necessary to add 'day' when translated, couldn't it mean 'one day' instead of 'day one'?

why is dis tou sabbatou in Luke 18:12 translated with week?

the Apostolic Interlinear Bible has:

νηστεύω δὶς τοῦ σαββάτου, ἀποδεκατῶ πάντα ὅσα κτῶμαι.

I fast twice a Sabbath, I tithe all as much as I acquire.

If you compare this with Esther 4:16

Go, gather together all the Jews who are in Susa, and fast for me.
Do not eat or drink for three days, night or day.

Here is meant they shall fast for three entire days, both day and night - meaning twice a day, both parts of the day, I think the very same is meant in Luke 18:12, that this man fasts twice a sabbath, not twice a week.


In Exodus 40:2 mia possibly might mean 'first' in the form of 'day one'

ΕΝ ΗΜΕΡΑ ΜΙΑ ΤΟΥ ΜΗΝΟΣ ΤΟΥ ΠΡΩΤΟΥ ΝΟΥΜΗΝΙΑ ΣΤΗΣΕΙΣ ΤΗΝ ΣΚΗΝΗΝ ΤΟΥ ΜΑΡΤΥΡΙΟΥ

On the first day of the first month, at the new moon, thou shalt set up the tabernacle of witness

but here we have hemera mia, 'day' is lacking in the NT verses.

while I only can read Greek and only knew a few words, my Latin is way better, maybe there are also people who know Latin

the verses concerning Jesus' resurection in the vulgate (the vulgate uses the same word ebdomadas for week as the LXX does)

vespere autem sabbati quae lucescit in primam sabbati venit Maria Magdalene et altera Maria videre sepulchrum

surgens autem mane prima sabbati apparuit primo Mariae Magdalenae de qua eiecerat septem daemonia

una autem sabbati valde diluculo venerunt ad monumentum portantes quae paraverant aromata

Una autem sabbati Maria Magdalene venit mane cum adhuc tenebrae essent ad monumentum et videt lapidem sublatum a monumento.

Cum esset ergo sero die illo una sabbatorum et fores essent clausae ubi erant discipuli propter metum Iudaeorum venit Iesus et stetit in medio et dicit eis pax vobis

according to my Latin knowledge, none of this phrases can possibly mean "first day of the week" in Latin language


you would help me very much if you could answer my question, please be openminded and question the church tradition and think about if even secular dictionaries might be biased in this matter.

The Luther bible from 1545 has Sabbath instead of first day of the week.
« Last Edit: 23 Mar, 2009, 22:04:19 by sven »

Daniel007

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Re: Σάββατον, sabbaton, Sabbath - can this mean "week"?
« Reply #5 on: 11 Apr, 2009, 20:52:51 »
Hi Sven,
      This Luke 18:12 "I fast twice the sabbath" interests me.   I have been unable to find a clear usage of "first day of the week" i.e. with a context that requires it before the Didache.   I am going to look at the thread referenced above.

Daniel
« Last Edit: 13 Apr, 2009, 18:05:34 by wings »


Daniel007

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Re: Σάββατον, sabbaton, Sabbath - can this mean "week"?
« Reply #6 on: 11 Apr, 2009, 21:47:32 »
Hi Sven,
      This Luke 18:12 "I fast twice the sabbath" interests me.   I have been unable to find a clear usage of "first day of the week" i.e. with a context that requires it before the Didache.   I am going to look at the thread referenced above.

Daniel

  O.k.  I read the link of the previous discussion and replied on it at:  https://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php?topic=6592.0