Author Topic: What is sweeter than to have someone with whom you dare to talk about everything just as you'd talk to yourself? (Cicero, De amicitia 22) -> τί γλυκύτερον ἢ ἔχειν ὅτῳ περὶ πάντων τολμᾶς οὕτως διαλέγεσθαι ὥσπερ σεαυτῷ;  (Read 391 times)

billberg23

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What is sweeter than to have someone with whom you dare to talk about everything just as you'd talk to yourself? (Cicero, De amicitia 22) -> τί γλυκύτερον ἢ ἔχειν ὅτῳ περὶ πάντων τολμᾶς οὕτως διαλέγεσθαι ὥσπερ σεαυτῷ;

https://www.translatum.gr/forum/index.php?topic=465215.msg711114#msg711114
« Last Edit: 26 Oct, 2017, 03:07:48 by billberg23 »
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος


Discipulus

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I don't like your adding the word φίλον which is obviously missing from the original intentionally.

So could we use this phrase from Symposion 194d: "ἐὰν μόνον ἔχῃ ὅτῳ διαλέγηται" to get:

τί γλυκύτερον ἢ ἔχειν ὅτῳ περὶ πάντων τολμᾶς οὕτως διαλέγεσθαι ὥσπερ σεαυτῷ;

?

billberg23

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I wouldn't say it's missing "intentionally";  I'd say it's missing because in this dialogue on friendship, it isn't necessary to repeat the word for "friend."  Obviously the sentence, in its context, refers to friendship, and quicum refers to a friend.  If you take the sentence out of its context and do it in Greek, you need some sort of referent for ᾧ with ἔχειν.  And you've found it (at least an indefinite referent) with ὅτῳ (= ᾧ τινι, i.e. τινα ᾧ).  Good work!     
« Last Edit: 30 Oct, 2017, 18:15:46 by billberg23 »


Discipulus

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I have found two translations of Cicero's De amicitia into Ancient Greek and this sentence is translated as:

  • «Τί γλύκιόν ἐστιν ἢ κτήσασθαί τινα, πρὸς ὃν ἐκφέροις ἂν ἀδεῶς ἅπαντα τῷ λόγῳ οὐχ᾿ ἧττον ἢ πρὸς ἑαυτόν;» (Διονύσιος ὁ Πετάβιος)
  • «τί δὲ τοῦ ἔχειν ἥδιον ὅτῳ ἂν ἅπανθ᾿ ὥσπερ σεαυτῷ τολμήσαις ἀνακοινοῦσθαι;» (Βασίλειος Ἀντωνιάδης)

Your thoughts on these translations?

billberg23

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Of the two translations you offer, the one we need to take most seriously is that of the eminent 17th-century scholar Denis Pétau ("Διονύσιος ὁ Πετάβιος"), who was fluent in both ancient languages.  He saw that there might be a problem in making Greek ἔχειν equivalent in this context to Latin habere, so used a word more definitely related to possession-by-acquisition, i.e. κτήσασθαι.

As to his choice of ἐκφέρω ("put forward, disclose, bring up"), I find it too strong for Cicero's simple loqui.  Your διαλέγεσθαι seems to hit the mark perfectly.  (I have the same problem with Antoniadis' ἀνακοινοῦσθαι, "impart".)  On the other hand, both Pétau and Antoniadis do try to reproduce Cicero's subjunctive in audeas with the Greek optative + ἂν after the indefinite τινα/ὅτῳ. Antoniadis accomplishes this with ἂν … τολμήσαις.

Finally, I see no difference in meaning between Latin audeo and Greek τολμἀω, so find it unnecessary to soften "dare to speak" as does Pétau.

Antoniadis' real contribution may be in using ἥδιον instead of γλύκιον/ γλυκύτερον.  This has a genuine Platonic/Theocritean ring to it.