Author Topic: ἐστιν / ἐστὶν -> why no accent and what should be the monotonic accentuation?  (Read 4912 times)

spiros

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654267
  • Gender: Male
  • point d’amour
    • spiros.doikas
    • greektranslator
    • doikas
    • 102094522373850556729
    • lavagraph
    • Greek translator CV
ἐστιν -> why no accent and what should be the monotonic accentuation?

If I am correct it is 3rd person singular pres ind act of the verb εἰμί. However, why is there no accent but only a breathing? What is the difference with accented ἐστὶν? If this was meant to be converted to monotonic Greek, shouldn't it have an accent, and in that case, where would the accent be placed?


billberg23

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5762
  • Gender: Male
  • Words ail me.
In ancient Greek, all present indicative forms of the verb "to be" (except second person singular) were enclitic, and so followed the normal rules for enclitic accent, e.g. ἄνθρωπός ἐστιν, but φίλος ἐστίν. (Oikonomos 19-20.) In the preceding examples,  ἄνθρωπος develops a new final accent to accommodate the enclitic;  φίλος, however, would have to have two consecutive acute accents (which is impossible), so the enclitic itself develops an accent.

At the beginning of sentences expressing definitions or "there is/are," ἐστιν receives an accent on the first syllable, e.g. Ἔστι χρυσοῦ κτῆμα τιμιώτερον.

Μοnotonic belongs to modern Greek.  If you want to use the ancient word ἐστιν in a modern sentence, you still follow the rules for accenting (or not accenting) enclitics, which apply in modern Greek as well.
« Last Edit: 01 Mar, 2010, 04:48:00 by billberg23 »
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

spiros

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654267
  • Gender: Male
  • point d’amour
    • spiros.doikas
    • greektranslator
    • doikas
    • 102094522373850556729
    • lavagraph
    • Greek translator CV
That means that ἐστιν in monotonic would be έστιν;
« Last Edit: 28 Feb, 2010, 22:24:28 by spiros »


vbd.

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 719
  • Gender: Male
It depends on the rest of your sentence, Spiros. Do you have something specific in mind?
At last, I have peace.

spiros

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654267
  • Gender: Male
  • point d’amour
    • spiros.doikas
    • greektranslator
    • doikas
    • 102094522373850556729
    • lavagraph
    • Greek translator CV
No, looking for a general polytonic to monotonic conversion rule (if there is one) that would apply to most—if not all—cases.

vbd.

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 719
  • Gender: Male
As long as you're converting polytonic to monotonic, I don't see the problem. Just use the accent as it is in the original and get rid of the breathing mark.
At last, I have peace.


spiros

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654267
  • Gender: Male
  • point d’amour
    • spiros.doikas
    • greektranslator
    • doikas
    • 102094522373850556729
    • lavagraph
    • Greek translator CV
So ἐστιν would become εστιν?

vbd.

  • Moderator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 719
  • Gender: Male
I suppose. Ἔστι -> Έστι and ἐστίν -> εστίν.
At last, I have peace.

spiros

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654267
  • Gender: Male
  • point d’amour
    • spiros.doikas
    • greektranslator
    • doikas
    • 102094522373850556729
    • lavagraph
    • Greek translator CV
I am talking about ἐστιν without an accent.

billberg23

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5762
  • Gender: Male
  • Words ail me.
I am talking about ἐστιν without an accent.
Τhen of course it would be simply εστιν.
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

spiros

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654267
  • Gender: Male
  • point d’amour
    • spiros.doikas
    • greektranslator
    • doikas
    • 102094522373850556729
    • lavagraph
    • Greek translator CV
Interesting, although it looks a bit paradoxical for a two-syllable word not having an accent in monotonic as one would not know how to stress it.
« Last Edit: 01 Mar, 2010, 16:55:49 by spiros »

billberg23

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5762
  • Gender: Male
  • Words ail me.
As with any enclitic, it would rely on the preceding word for its accent.  (See my first reply in this thread).  Perhaps you could supply a context that we could use as an example.
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

spiros

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654267
  • Gender: Male
  • point d’amour
    • spiros.doikas
    • greektranslator
    • doikas
    • 102094522373850556729
    • lavagraph
    • Greek translator CV
I have no specific context in mind, I just wonder what would be the general approach in such cases.

billberg23

  • Moderator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 5762
  • Gender: Male
  • Words ail me.
The easiest thing, it seems to me, would be always to preserve polytonic when citing ancient Greek.  But now it occurs to me to wonder:  is that "politically incorrect" these days?  (-:
Τί δέ τις; Τί δ' οὔ τις; Σκιᾶς ὄναρ ἄνθρωπος. — Πίνδαρος

spiros

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 654267
  • Gender: Male
  • point d’amour
    • spiros.doikas
    • greektranslator
    • doikas
    • 102094522373850556729
    • lavagraph
    • Greek translator CV
Sure, but this is not the point ;)