Κάθε γράμμα είναι και μία συλλαβή, όχι ένας φθόγγος

Kennedy · 10 · 5459

Kennedy

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Γεια σας, παιδιά. What's the best way to translate "φθόγγος" into English in the sentence:

Quote
Κάθε γράμμα είναι και μία συλλαβή, όχι ένας φθόγγος.

Is "vocal sound" the only option here?

Thanks in advance, :-)
Ken
« Last Edit: 29 Sep, 2005, 14:44:37 by spiros »
Verberat nos et lacerat fortvna: patiamvr. Non est sævitia, certamen est, qvod qvo sæpivs adierimvs, fortiores erimvs. Seneca


spiros

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Kennedy

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No, Linear B:

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Το γεγονός είναι ότι ήδη τη 2η χιλιετία οι Έλληνες με τη γραμμική Β' περνούν σε μια συλλαβογραφική γραφή που αποτελεί πρώτη μορφή φωνολογικής γραφής, αφού στηρίζεται στη συλλαβή. Κάθε γράμμα είναι και μία συλλαβή, όχι ένας φθόγγος.

What is "φθόγγος" exactly anyway? I thought it was "vocal sound" at first (that is, the sound pertaining to vowels only), but I found another excerpt where it seems to mean simply "sound" (no matter if consonantal or vocal sounds). If "φθόγγος" means "sound", what's the difference between that and "ήχος"? "φθόγγος" relates to human sounds only?
Verberat nos et lacerat fortvna: patiamvr. Non est sævitia, certamen est, qvod qvo sæpivs adierimvs, fortiores erimvs. Seneca


banned8

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Φθόγγος is the same as phoneme, the smallest meaningful speech sound.

Here's a bit from the Britannica, closely related to what I think you're reading:

Alphabetic writing systems represent the phonological structure of the language. The smallest pronounceable segment of speech is a syllable, but a syllable may be analyzed into the distinctive underlying constituents called phonemes. The syllable pa is produced by passing a column of air through the vocal chords, an action that constitutes the vocalic element, bounded at the outset by sudden release of air through the lips, an action that constitutes the consonantal element. The achievement of the alphabet is to analyze the syllable into its underlying consonant and vowel constituents. The economy of representation comes from the fact that a large number of syllables can be generated from a small set of these constituents. An alphabet consisting of 21 consonants and five vowels can generate 105 simple consonant-and-vowel syllables and more than 2,000 consonant-vowel-consonant syllables. In short, an alphabet can represent a full range of phonological differences. It is a script particularly suited to representing a language in which morphological differences are marked in phonological differences...
« Last Edit: 29 Jun, 2005, 19:35:30 by nickel »



Kennedy

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Quote
Φθόγγος is the same as phoneme, the smallest meaningful speech sound.

Oh, boy, that sure throws a lot of light on the subject! Really, thanks a million, Nick!
Verberat nos et lacerat fortvna: patiamvr. Non est sævitia, certamen est, qvod qvo sæpivs adierimvs, fortiores erimvs. Seneca


Kennedy

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Quick question (after all this time): what is the difference, exactly, between φθόγγος and φώνημα? I mean, etymologically "φώνημα" should be "phoneme" (fits like a glove, almost as a transference between the alphabets)... but if that's "φθόγγος" already... what do we have left for the other word?
Verberat nos et lacerat fortvna: patiamvr. Non est sævitia, certamen est, qvod qvo sæpivs adierimvs, fortiores erimvs. Seneca


banned8

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Φθόγγος (from the ancient Greek verb φθέγγομαι, to utter a sound) was a sound, any distinct sound, and in Plato it was distinguished from φωνή (voice). In modern Greek it is used to mean any articulate sound.

Φώνημα was a rather rare word in ancient Greek, meaning the sound of a voice, which was used by the French to denote the smallest phonetic unit. It became to phonetics what the atom was to physics.

Ήχος was rare in ancient Greek and is not a term used in linguistics.

It was easy for φώνημα to become phonème in French and phoneme in English, but I don’t think anyone cared much for “phthong” (though they had to swallow diphthong).

In Greek, linguists use φθόγγος to denote ‘a single sound’ as the physical aspect of the phoneme (which is the functional aspect). In a Greek text of linguistics, I would expect to find φθόγγος used for a single articulated sound and φώνημα for phoneme. And vice versa, if I translated from English into Greek, I would translate ‘sound’ as φθόγγος if it referred to human speech.

In your text above, ‘φθόγγος’ is used to mean ‘a single sound’, ‘a phoneme’, to distinguish it from ‘syllable’. In a simple text, not necessarily about phonetics, I would expect to find φθόγγος used instead of φώνημα.


Kennedy

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Nick, that was pretty thorough. Thanks a lot, really. How do you guys find the time to do your jobs and answer everyone here?
Verberat nos et lacerat fortvna: patiamvr. Non est sævitia, certamen est, qvod qvo sæpivs adierimvs, fortiores erimvs. Seneca


banned8

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Answering everyone here is part of our jobs. Spyros is paying us a humongous sum of money every month to do what we do...


wings

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Ιndeed. :-) It is our duty.
Ο λόγος είναι μεγάλη ανάγκη της ψυχής. (Γιώργος Ιωάννου)


 

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